Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Mud problem in AN

Mud problem in AN

mfilip62 - 23-5-2008 at 04:45

Lately I started to filtrate my annual batches of ammonium nitrate solution from KAN,comercial fertilizer that contains
"AN"(ammonium nitrate) and "K"(MgCO3 and CaCO3).

I am dryeing saturated solution during the hot summer and then I have the AN for the whole year!

Butt this year there is a problem!

Usualy i use 2 or 3 rags, and that was fine,solution exited crystaly clear.

But this years,some idiot in factory putted ultra fine sand(it is like 600 mash or finer!!!)
I filtrated it like 10 times and there is still much ultra fine sand in it,is there any (SIMPLE) metod to remowe the f.....g bastard,please help!!!
I tryed ewerything;coffe filters,all sorts of rags,Vileda rags,sedimentation(it sediments,but when you try to decante it,same story again)...

Is there any trick like chemical remowall that won't effect AN,electro,magnetic,centryfugal,some smart filters...ANYTHING!!!

thanks

not_important - 23-5-2008 at 04:55

Use real filter paper, fine grade. Coffee filters are pretty coarse and open, coffee grounds are pretty big and don't take much.

Sedimentation. then siphoning the liquid off rather than decanting, so you to move the container - siphon slowly and don't put the tube too near the bottom. This can be enhanced by using a fine grade filter stick on the end of the siphon, to catch any sand that does get near the end. Also add some coarse heavy particles like washed pea gravel before settaling, to give the fine sand a sheltered place to settle into, where it will be less disturbed by the siphoning off (but still don't do it too fast.)

AngelEyes - 23-5-2008 at 08:15

Cotton or Ceramic Fibre wool in a glass tube maybe?
It would act as a partial bung, slowly clogging up with the particulate matter, but would also let the liquid through.

MagicJigPipe - 23-5-2008 at 09:41

I have several of these glass tubes with a little fritted glass disc in the middle of them. I don't know what they are originally for but it sounds like they would be extremely useful in your case. It might take a while but it should work. Try a fine fritted glass filter. I mean, water should go through sand anyway, right? So, why not just let it drain through really slow? Then you have an improvised filtration system.

Or is it like fumed silica or something WAY too fine like that?

Heh heh heh, you said bung.

[Edited on 5-23-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

Polverone - 23-5-2008 at 11:53

As reported by Pulverulescent:

Quote:

That's the way I get my AN. too, mfilip62, and I like it since it's easy'n'cheap.

I usually let the sediment settle over time in a large container, until the solution clears fully---it takes time, but it's worth doing, IMO.

I siphon down as close to the sediment-layer as possible (~1cm) and simply dump the remainder.

Forget decanting; it just stirs up the sediment!

And moving the container does it, too!

Use thin plastic tubing (~3mm); positioning the tube can be fiddly and whatever you do, don't try sucking to start the siphon or you'll end up with a taste in your mouth that'll overwhelm all other tastes, like food/drink and anything else you like.

After evaporation my AN.-cake is a dark cream colour from contaminents in the NH3 used.

Haber-process NH3 is fairly pure and if that's what you have consider yourself lucky!

But if it's not the contaminents can mostly be removed by evaporation; care is needed heating AN. though, and breathing the issuing vapours isn't a good idea, either.

If you have to filter, though, you could try wedging a good wad of kitchen paper or toilet-tissue into the tapered spout of a large plastic funnel.

The spout's open end should should be pressed down on a firm surface so that the paper can be tamped down firmly to avoid leaving voids in the wad.

Too firm a wad will greatly slow the filtering though!

If you don't want to heat the impure cake (for safety's sake), you can simply precipitate near technical-grade crystals from a cooled saturated solution.

At the price I pay for a big bag of C.A.N. I can afford to lose some in the sediment, which when it's dumped looks like catshit, as my wife told me in no uncertain terms when I got it all over the carpet off my shoes one day.

Zinc - 23-5-2008 at 14:46

I also use the same brand of fertilizer for my AN. But I don't have that problem. I simply dissolve it in water, let it sit a few days to settle and decant most of the liquid.

Zinc - 23-5-2008 at 14:48

I also use the same brand of fertilizer for my AN. But I don't have that problem. I simply dissolve it in water, let it sit a few days to settle and decant most of the liquid. Although the last time I did that was around 1 month ago. As mfilip62 said perhaps now they started using finer sand.

grndpndr - 25-5-2008 at 15:40

The AN Im findin while pure is far to pricey at some $9/lb, this 'KAN' is it the brand name and what sort of places might I find it?Dstributors/mail order as im in the sticks?

If the edimet as fine as you say the only way to remove the clear solution has been described tying a stick etc to keep the siphon a few inches away from the sediment.Works for removng green beer from the sediment laden bottom of a fermenting vessel and the sediment there is no bigger than dead yeast and your sand is likely much heavier /larger than microscopic
yeast.Good luck but i would forsee 0 problems other than

the slight waste unless a use can be found for the
sludge,fertilizer maybeLOL

The 'mud' is apparently powdered limestone, calcium cabonate?

[Edited on 25-5-2008 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 26-5-2008 by grndpndr]

12AX7 - 26-5-2008 at 21:03

Pulverescent had this to say:

-=-=-=-

mfilip62, if AN extraction is something you engage in on a regular basis, you could custom an apparatus which might afford dividends in time-saving and product-purity.
A large settling-container, say, a translucent, plastic carboy with a large screw-cap eccentrically
situated can be used.
A multiplicity of small holes bored in the large-diameter cap sufficient to insert rigid black small-diameter plastic tubes of equal length in such way they can be inserted or withdrawn as needed.
When the bunch of tubes is inserted, the lower end can be tied together near the end to form an easily visible "rod" whose position can easily be verified through the translucent plastic case.
This first container can be placed on a solid bench, ready for the clay-covered prills to which lukewarm water sufficient to dissolve much all of the C.A.N. can then be added.
The receiver can be a similar carboy at floor-level.
Rigid tubes of the same number and diameter can be inserted into the receiver, but here the joints *must* be air-tight.
If problems arise here, rubber bungs could be used!
The protruding ends of the tubes in the receiver *and* in the sedimenter can have flexible plastic pushed onto them, thus connecting both containers. These connections, too must be air-tight, or the siphon won't work, otherwise.
To start the process, a quantity of prills can be introduced into the sedimenter, followed by sufficient warm water to nearly fill the sedimenter.
This is where the waiting begins!
The clarity, or otherwise, of the solution can be checked periodically until you're sure everything has settled out.
Once the solution has cleared, the cap with its rod of tubing can be screwed on with the end of the rod at a position, say, mid-way in the solution; the position can be lowered then as the solution-level drops.
To begin the siphon, the cap can be removed from the receiver, the receiver deformed to expel as much air as possible, at which point your assistant or SO. can replace the the receiver-cap tightly so that an air-tight seal is effected.
When you then release the deforming pressure on the receiver a partial vacuum will form within the it, sufficient, hopefully, to begin extraction by siphon of the now fully cleared solution.
The number of tubes used will, of course determine the rate at which the exitting solution comes over, and the position of the visible rod of tubes in the settler can be adjusted as desired.
If you don't want to discard the remaining cm. or so, of solution, you can later siphon this off with its attendant fog of small particles into a tall beaker of small diameter, wait a couple of days and carefully siphon this off.
That way the amount you'll dump will be greatly reduced.
Anyway, 'hope that helps in some way.

P

mfilip62 - 27-5-2008 at 10:03

Thanks 12AX7(or pulverscent!?)
Looks like fine metehode,but i must read it few more times becouse english is not my mother-tounge

,graphic would be appriciated!!!

If I am brave(crazy) enough I don't need to doo all the air-tight,vacuum stuffs to start the filtration,right,just suck it a bit and lett it flow

RIGHT!=

I boil up 1,5l of water,dump 3kg of KAN and if cools downs momentally,than I cook if for 15 minute to heat it again!
Try this insted of just dissolveing the KAN and try what is better! How much of water you use per how much kg of KAN!?

I heat the crystalsit on 150°C for 10-15 min. after avaporation to rid of all the water,don't need to explain that,thanks!

grndpndr in which county you live!?
Otherwise,how cann I told you where tu buy KAN,equivalent or better?!
Solution "must" be supersaturated (is it, if KAN contains 27% nitrogen!?) becouse I must do it secretly or my households destroy ewerything,hardwork and aquipment and call police!(becouse they are cowardish ignoramus biggots)
It allso must be done during the summer,in the sun,and here it easily reaches 40°+ in shade,and I hate heat more than anything!!! I easily faint in souches hellish conditions!!! :mad:

Only thing i didn't understand in youre first reply was;
"After evaporation my AN.-cake is a dark cream colour from contaminents in the NH3 used.

Haber-process NH3 is fairly pure and if that's what you have consider yourself lucky!"

What is cake!? Is this solid AN left after evaporating,if so,it cann be becouse of the diry saucer(I use black saucer for evaporation my mom used to bake (real) cakes in,and YOU!?)

Whre do you live,which factory produces your KAN,"PETROKEMIJA" or...!?

Thanks

Zinc - 27-5-2008 at 10:39

I think that Petrokemija is the only producer of KAN in Croatia.

mfilip62 - 29-5-2008 at 12:37

I am not taotally sure,but i think that expect HS2000 that is one of the rare Croatian export products!!!

It definitely exports to Bosnia,Serbia,maybe Slovenia and some other countrys!

But there are a lot of the same(even better) probucts with the same name.
We said;"It is not the shit,but dog made a crap!"

Just search for AN based fertilizer,as i heard,in USA and all ower the world you cann buy 33-34% N (actually pure AN,wway more purer than KAN),and now they put protective cower agains oils you cann wash out with acetone!

Petrokemija now lounched new fertilizer namen "AN",hmmm...
I just wonder what it may contain.
But most of the garden stores dont sell this thing becouse;
"...did you know that you cann meke extremly powerfull dangerous explosive out of them by mixing household items,and we don't want to tell you what becouse you are young and that is dangerous!"

What an ignorance and vapour!

Zink where do you live!?

[Edited on 29-5-2008 by mfilip62]

Zinc - 29-5-2008 at 12:57

Where did you see the HS2000 fertilizer? The only AN containing fertilizer I found is Florin 6.

Živim isto u Hrvatskoj. Provjeri U2U poruke, sam ti poslao neke.

[Edited on 29-5-2008 by Zinc]

mfilip62 - 7-6-2008 at 04:03

HS2000 is a gun, not a fertilizer!!!!!!!!

One of the our rare export products!

Krivo si razumio!!!

Zinc - 7-6-2008 at 05:19

I am stupid!!

Ajoj e sam glup. Fala što si mi pojasnio.

mfilip62 - 23-6-2008 at 15:05

12AX7(or pulverscent!?) TKANK YOU WERY WERY MUCH!!!!

This methode of yours is soo effective I could not believe it!!!

With my complicated(better to say hardworking) method that uses 1,5L of water I had around 2,5L of solution and around 1600-1800g max. of pure AN from 3kg of KAN.

And with youre method,I used 2L of water,after 20 hours of sedimentation i got around 3,8L of solution,and from sediment(adding more water) another 700ml,thats around 4,5L of
solution,and guess what;2341 GRAMS OF PURE AN!!!!! :cool:

The best thing is that sediment acts like non-Newtonian liquid(like corn starch/water) and you dont need to worry about rilleing the solution while siphoning!

I used a bit more water becouse i did not heat it first time,and now I will try a warious methodes to use the less possible amount of water(more concentrated solution=less to dry)

I am interested in youre methode of drying the final product!?After I let solution in the sun to evaporate,I use an oven (155°C),but this takes a lot of time and it cann be pretty exhausting!

How cann you be sure it is dry enought to be used for ANFO and other binaries!?
I crush it into little cristals,and if they don't cake after day or two in airtight container it is OK!

Is there any more scientific methode!