Sciencemadness Discussion Board

'Grail' Peroxide -- Theory and Research

ShadowWarrior4444 - 10-5-2008 at 12:41

There have been reports floating around that synthesizing TATP with a large excess of HCl catalyst produces a product that it both more stable and more energetic. I was reminded of this very recently when reading a patent pertaining to the catalytic formation of 2,5-Dimethylfuran from acetone--apparently acetone condenses readily to Mesityl Oxide in the presence of an acid catalyst; HCl and H2SO4 are specifically mentioned by the patent. The aforementioned patent: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=att...

I then proceeded to research whether Mesityl Oxide could be peroxidated, leading me to a few interesting patents:

"Peroxygen compounds" This discusses the properties an synth of DAAP (diacetone alchohol peroxide) more than Mesityl, but as they are formed from acetone in very similar ways, it may be related.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4233462.html

"Organic peroxide compositions" speaks about Mesityl Oxide Peroxide in relation to plasticizers.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4376218.html

Ancillary Patents:
Improvements in or relating to processes for the preparation of Peroxidic Compositions
http://www.wikipatents.com/gb/1162086.html

Drying Peroxidic Compounds
http://www.wikipatents.com/gb/1160712.html

It should also be noted that 2,5-Dimethylfuran is approximately as energetic as gasoline, and is being considered as a replacement for such. An organic peroxide formed from this material, or a precursor to this material then has a particularly good chance of being very energetic.

Synthesis Recommendations:
It may be best to to synthesize these peroxides in various mixtures and test their properties, example: Peroxidate a mixture of MEK and DAA, or perhaps peroxidate acetone using a gaseous HCl catalyst. The existence of these other organic peroxides opens up a wide array of experiments relating to their explosive properties.

Selected Patent Excerpt:

Comparison of the hazard properties of 55% Diacetone Alcohol Hydroperoxide with MEKP (RGS grade) Test DAAP MEKP (RGS grade)
______________________________________


Ignition time (disc test)

80 sec. 5-10 sec.

Pressure-time test

did not reach

70 millisec.

300 psi.

Drop weight adiabatic

compression test.

>120 kg.cm. 10-15 kg.cm.

Zinc - 12-5-2008 at 16:05

Very interesting. Especially that mesityl oxide peroxide can be made from diacetone alcohol, H2SO4 and H2O2 as said in the patent ("25 g diacetone alcohol were mixed with 35 g of 30 w/w hydrogen peroxide and 150 ml of sulphuric acid. The mixture was left to stand for 65 hours at room temperature. Where a precipitate was produced it was filtered off.") But it doesnt say how concentrated must the H2SO4 be. Does anyone know?

I would like to try that as I have access to diacetone alcohol but I don't know anything about mesityl oxide peroxide. Does anyone have any information about it (stability, sensitivity, VOD)?

ShadowWarrior4444 - 13-5-2008 at 13:06

Quote:
Originally posted by Zinc
Very interesting. Especially that mesityl oxide peroxide can be made from diacetone alcohol, H2SO4 and H2O2 as said in the patent ("25 g diacetone alcohol were mixed with 35 g of 30 w/w hydrogen peroxide and 150 ml of sulphuric acid. The mixture was left to stand for 65 hours at room temperature. Where a precipitate was produced it was filtered off.") But it doesnt say how concentrated must the H2SO4 be. Does anyone know?

I would like to try that as I have access to diacetone alcohol but I don't know anything about mesityl oxide peroxide. Does anyone have any information about it (stability, sensitivity, VOD)?


This patent appears to have the chemical structure of mesityl oxide peroxide, in addition to an array of other peroxides (notes on preperation and seperation as well): PEROXIDES OF J Alfred Kiecfae

This one suggests that 'MOP' has "minimal grinding clearance," but does suggest the ability to grind it--putting its sensitivity at less than AP:
DRY SOLID ORGANIC PEROXIDE COMPOUNDS Heinz Winter

[Edited on 5-13-2008 by ShadowWarrior4444]

chemrox - 13-5-2008 at 21:14

I would rather make nitroglycerine on the back porch on a hot day then mess with peroxides. When I was in school there was a guy in the next floor up that was the poster child for safety gear that year because he was wearing his goggles when he blew a couple of fingers off in a gas line expt with peroxides.

ShadowWarrior4444 - 13-5-2008 at 21:30

Quote:
Originally posted by chemrox
I would rather make nitroglycerine on the back porch on a hot day then mess with peroxides. When I was in school there was a guy in the next floor up that was the poster child for safety gear that year because he was wearing his goggles when he blew a couple of fingers off in a gas line expt with peroxides.


With respect, most of us know that peroxides are quite unstable at this point, and those who don't and synth the compound anyway will have a pleasant encounter with Darwin and his scythe.

As for the relative deadliness of mesityl oxide peroxide and DAAP, the original side by side tests of it/them vs MEKP seem to be quite heartening:

Drop weight adiabatic compression test.

DAAP: 120 kg.cm. MEKP: 10-15 kg.cm.

Ten times more stable than the second most popular method of tempting Darwin and his big scythe.

[Edited on 5-14-2008 by ShadowWarrior4444]

Zinc - 13-5-2008 at 22:53

Yes I know about the instability of peroxides. So I would always make small amounts. (less than a gram). So can anyone say how concentrated must the H2SO4 be?

Formatik - 14-5-2008 at 00:06

Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowWarrior4444 As for the relative deadliness of mesityl oxide peroxide and DAAP, the orignal side by side tests of it/them vs MEKP seem to be quite heartening:

Drop weight adiabatic compression test.

DAAP: 120 kg.cm. MEKP: 10-15 kg.cm.

Ten times more stable than the second most popular method of tempting Darwin and his big scythe.


That would be 1.2 N·m for DAAP and then 0.1-0.15 N·m for MEKP. cTATP is at the least 0.0075 N·m (more like less than 0.0003 N·m). For a comparison with Hg(ONC)2: mercury fulminate values also vary with apparatus and the tester, but with a Bureau of Mines apparatus it is 5 cm for 2 kg wt (0.1 N·m), which is around the usual value seen, though with a Picatinny Arsenal apparatus it is 4 inches for 1 lb (0.0071 N·m).