Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Could cancer rates be linked, among other things, to CO2 and copper (and other transition metals) exposure?

AJKOER - 10-11-2018 at 08:52

Is it possible that CO2 rich drinks and air rich in CO2 for people with copper plumbing, or other transition exposure (cookware,..) could increase cancer rates?

Limited support for this hypothesis is, for example, higher rates of lung cancer in urban versus rural environments. Cities tend to have limited amount of trees, plants,...that consume CO2. An example of a rural population with increased longevity are Amish people living, for example, in Lancaster PA, US (see https://lancasterpa.com/amish/amish-people/ ) who likely also consume lower amounts of carbonated drinks. To quote:

"But what researchers who have studied them have found is what the Amish have a surplus of: good health in late life. The average American life expectancy is currently just under 79 years"

Source: https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=7gznW-q-DY_zz...

Why focus on Amish? Because life style including tobacco and alcohol use is a major risk factor (see https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140123154752.h... ), and the Amish, likely in general, make better life style choices, and don't suffer the ills of poverty more prevalent in some rural communities.

A biochemical argument, per this article, 'Radical production by hydrogen peroxide/bicarbonate and copper uptake in mammalian cells: Modulation by Cu(II) complexes; in Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry,Volume 105, Issue 2, February 2011, Pages 189-194, available at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016201341... ), it appears that copper ions in the presence of CO2/HCO3- to quote from the abstract:

"The presence of the bicarbonate/carbon dioxide pair is known to accelerate the transition metal ion-catalysed oxidation of various biotargets. It has been shown that stable Cu(II) complexes formed with imine ligands that allow redox cycling between Cu(I) and Cu(II) display diverse apoptotic effects on cell cultures. It is also reported that Cu(II)–tetraglycine can form a stable Cu(III) complex. In the present study, radical generation from H2O2 and H2O2/HCO3− in the presence of these two different classes of Cu(II) complexes was evaluated by monitoring the oxidation of dihydrorhodamine 123 and NADH and by the quantitative determination of thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (TBARs method). Cu(II)–imine complexes produced low levels of reactive species whereas Cu(II)–Gly-derived complexes, as well as the free Cu(II) ion, produced oxygen-derived radicals in significantly larger amounts. The effects of these two classes of complexes on mammalian tumour cell viability were equally distinct, in that Cu(II)–imine complexes caused apoptosis, ...."

Comments welcomed.

[Edited on 10-11-2018 by AJKOER]

[Edited on 10-11-2018 by AJKOER]

Sulaiman - 10-11-2018 at 09:05

From my very limited impression of the Amish,
they are in general exposed to very few toxins
and have a strong work ethic, a peaceful lifestyle,
and do not suffer any significant dietary requirements,
amongst other factors.

Comparative studies may be misleading ?

AJKOER - 10-11-2018 at 09:12

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
From my very limited impression of the Amish,
they are in general exposed to very few toxins
and have a strong work ethic, a peaceful lifestyle,
and do not suffer any significant dietary requirements,
amongst other factors.

Comparative studies may be misleading ?


Yes, those are some of favorables aspects. Other factors include an organic diet (no pesticides) and also low to no exposure to radiation from cell phones, microwaves,...

However, they likely don't have an emergency clinic/hospital just down the street either in the event of serious accidents, heart attacks,....

[Edited on 10-11-2018 by AJKOER]

streety - 10-11-2018 at 09:21

This seems like an enormous leap from the evidence you provide. Apart from the massive confounding factors that Sulaiman mentioned:

Is there any evidence that copper leeches from pipes to meaningfully increase exposure?
Would increased copper exposure be harmful? For example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6196933/ suggests in many people it might actually be beneficial.

unionised - 10-11-2018 at 09:25

"Could cancer rates be linked, among other things, to CO2 and copper exposure?"
They could.
But there's no evidence that they are.

kulep - 10-11-2018 at 09:38

most of the world has never used and will never use copper pipes, kinda hard to realize if you are from the english-speaking world

AJKOER - 10-11-2018 at 09:39

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
"Could cancer rates be linked, among other things, to CO2 and copper exposure?"
They could.
But there's no evidence that they are.


You mean no suggestive evidence until someone does a large study controlled for significant risk factors, and then finds a suggestive correlation based on water samples levels relating to copper, and also to exposure to CO2/HCO3- from air samples and number of consumed soda bottles, grocery receipts purchases, food diaries,...

Texium - 10-11-2018 at 09:49

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
"Could cancer rates be linked, among other things, to CO2 and copper exposure?"
They could.
But there's no evidence that they are.


You mean no suggestive evidence until someone does a large study controlled for significant risk factors, and then finds a suggestive correlation based on water samples levels relating to copper, and also to exposure to CO2/HCO3- from air samples and number of consumed soda bottles, grocery receipts purchases, food diaries,...
Exactly– get on it!

AJKOER - 10-11-2018 at 09:52

Quote: Originally posted by kulep  
most of the world has never used and will never use copper pipes, kinda hard to realize if you are from the english-speaking world


True, but some cultures (like in India) do traditionally cook in copper pans. Be mindful of your cookware, see https://tasteforlife.com/living/eco-home/is-your-cookware-po... and https://www.conscious-cook.com/hidden-dangers/ . Upon reading these articles, I have edited my title to include '(and other transition metals)'.

In fact, I remember reading of children deaths due to copper exposure from stewing in acidic dishes (with tomatoes, for example) and ample air exposure. Actually, an electrochemical assisted reaction given by:

4 Cu+ + 4 H+ + O2 → 4 Cu2+ + 2 H2O

Source: See Equation (32), on p. 129, in 'Review of iron-free Fenton-like systems for activating H2O2 in advanced oxidation processes', by Alok D. Bokare and Wonyong Choi, published in Journal of Hazardous Materials, 275:121, May 2014, DOI: 10.1016/j.jhazmat.2014.04.054 .

[Edited on 10-11-2018 by AJKOER]

AJKOER - 10-11-2018 at 12:17

As to the question, 'Could cancer rates be linked, among other things, to CO2 and copper (and other transition metals) exposure?', I have previously on SM cited research suggesting the copper/transition link to lung disease stemming from exposure to dust/particulate matter rich in active transition metals, like Cu and Fe, to quote in part (link: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=96347 ):
Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  

......
Here is an extract on one of my prior discussion of Fenton-type reactions proceeding from in situ formed H2O2, to quote:

"Well, let's start with some possible Fenton based reactions creating the hydroxyl radicals, .OH and the superoxide anion, .O2- . As a reference, see, for example, "Generation of Hydroxyl Radicals from Dissolved Transition Metals in Surrogate Lung Fluid Solutions" by Edgar Vidrio, et al at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2626252/ . Cited reactions :

Cu(l)/Fe(II) + O2(aq) → Cu(ll)/Fe(III) + .O2-

As an alternate reference for the above reaction (which I have personally performed on Cuprous citrate using an air pump from an old fish tank), see for example, https://books.google.com/books?id=WjReuSXxl4YC&pg=PA17&a...

The reaction chain continues as:

Cu(l)/Fe(II) + .O2- +2 H+ → Cu(ll)/Fe(III) + HOOH

Cu(l)/Fe(II) + HOOH → Cu(ll)/Fe(III) + .OH + OH-

Net of the last three reactions:

3 Cu(l)/Fe(II) + O2(aq) +2 H+ → 3 Cu(ll)/Fe(III) + .OH + OH-

And, in the presence of sunlight (or a reductant like Citric or Ascorbic acid), a cyclic reaction could ensue in the case of sunlight:

Cu(ll)/Fe(lll) (aq) + hv → Cu(l)/Fe(ll) (aq) + HO• + H+ "
.......
[Edited on 11-11-2017 by AJKOER][/rquote]

An added quote from the Vidrio's work detailing the limited recycling ability of citrate (and ascorbate):

“Similar reactions can occur with Cu, Cr and Ni. Furthermore, biological chelators and reductants can greatly enhance the production of ROS (Burkitt et al., 1991; Engelmann et al., 2003; Wenk et al., 2001). For example, in the presence of ascorbate (Asc), a biological reductant, the oxidized form of the transition metal produced by the Fenton reaction can be reactivated (R2 and R3), thus allowing additional ROS to be produced.

Fe(III) + Ascn → Fe(II) + Ascn+1 (R2)
Cu(II) + Ascn → Cu(I) + Ascn+1 (R3) “
.......
[Edited on 7-10-2018 by AJKOER]


So, my new question just adds an acidity/catalytic CO2 component (which is known to introduce the increased longevity carbonate radical due to its selectivity as compared with the hydroxyl radical) and further expands from lung to potentially other cancers.

[Edited on 10-11-2018 by AJKOER]

unionised - 10-11-2018 at 14:26

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
I have previously on SM cited research suggesting the copper/transition link to lung disease stemming from exposure to dust/particulate matter rich in active transition metals,
[Edited on 10-11-2018 by AJKOER]


Yes, you did that bit of empty speculating.

So?

AJKOER - 11-11-2018 at 05:36

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
I have previously on SM cited research suggesting the copper/transition link to lung disease stemming from exposure to dust/particulate matter rich in active transition metals,
[Edited on 10-11-2018 by AJKOER]


Yes, you did that bit of empty speculating.

So?


I have had contact with people working in home renovations, which can generate, especially during the demolition phase, immerse clouds of particulate matter.

Bottom line, I was surprised on how young some workers are and already suffering from debilitating lung related issues.

Need more evidence? Read reports relating to health issues of the First Responders to the 9/11 World Trade Center attack. Note, the paper I cited was published in 2008, seven years after 9/11!

To those acquainted with metal based redox reactions, it is kind of obvious, not speculation.

[Edited on 11-11-2018 by AJKOER]

Tsjerk - 11-11-2018 at 07:32

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  

A biochemical argument, per this article, 'Radical production by hydrogen peroxide/bicarbonate and copper uptake in mammalian cells: Modulation by Cu(II) complexes; in Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry,Volume 105, Issue 2, February 2011, Pages 189-194, available at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016201341... ), it appears that copper ions in the presence of CO2/HCO3- to quote from the abstract:
[Edited on 10-11-2018 by AJKOER]


Did you bother to read the M&M of this article? If you had you could have noticed the cell line used in this article is a cancerous one. These lines are known for their high metabolism and therefor high rate of oxygen use. It is therefor not OK to assume the results of these experiments can be extrapolated to normal conditions (not having cancer). The DNA repair mechanisms which evolved over a couple billion years are not able to handle the rates of metabolism seen in these cell lines, all results gained from experiments with these lines are to be taken with a grain of salt.

For example, mutations which cause cancer can only cause metastasizing cancer, when the cells also gain mutations that induce angiogenesis. When normal (not angiogenesis capable tumors) grow as the would grow, they die because of oxygen deficiency.

Cancer lines which can not cause angiogenesis are benign.

[Edited on 11-11-2018 by Tsjerk]