Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Strange uses for energetic materials

Strange uses for energetic materials

gregxy - 3-4-2008 at 14:33

Its kind of interesting to look at chemical literature and see
some of the strange compounds that are found in everyday
procucts.

Here is one that is called "Musk Xylene" which is used as a
fragrence in "fine purfumes" it is a tri nitro xylene derivative.
Due to its poor OB it would probably be difficult to denonate,
but it is strange to find it in a purfume.

http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/sccp/documents...

di nitro phenol DNP is used by bodybuilders at up to 1 gram
per day for weight loss. It short circuits the electron
transport chain resulting in an increase in metabolism of
30% or more plus a lot of sweating.

Nerro - 3-4-2008 at 15:01

Those bodybuilders often overheat and die or suffer nervous trauma

nitro-genes - 4-4-2008 at 06:09

http://www.physorg.com/news124039000.html

ScienceGeek - 4-4-2008 at 06:44

I don't think I quite understand why these are "strange" uses for energetic materials?
Simple chemical compounds are part of very many everyday objects and things, and that goes for those, if pure, that are explosive as well.

Take nitroglycerine for example: The use of Nitroglycerine in medicine is something "everyone" knows, and therefore not very exiting. But if one were to find out that they recently started using Nitroglycerine in medicine, every chemist's eye would pop out.
TNT was used as a pigment not too long ago...in its pure state...

I don't know...I just don't think it's very "strange".
Very interesting though on the trivial level

woelen - 4-4-2008 at 09:51

Ammonium nitrate can be detonated and is used in explosives. It also is used in agriculture in HUGE amounts. I can buy it at 80% purity (mixed with chalk) in 25 kg bags.

franklyn - 4-4-2008 at 11:29

Quote:

Originally posted by nitro-genes
http://www.physorg.com/news124039000.html

W O W ! . That is absolutely phenomenal, I quote below _

The ‘explosive embossing’ method achieves a resolution in the two-figure nanometer range. “Nobody believed such a thing could be possible,” raves ICT project manager Günter Helferich. Almost any structure, be it wood, leather, textiles or sand, can be rapidly and accurately impressed on metal in perfect detail with the aid of a sheet explosive.

The structures that have to be imprinted into the steel are so tiny that they cannot even be discerned under an optical microscope.

.

JohnWW - 4-4-2008 at 18:46

Some low-molecular-weight nitro compounds, and nitrate and nitrite esters, especially nitroglycerine, besides being explosive, are used medicinally in small quantities as vasodilators in the treatment of angina pectoris. Nitrite esters are also used as an antidote for cyanide poisoning. TNT, TNB, and dinitrobenzene are also used as an intermediate in the preparation of dyestuffs (yellow mostly) and photographic chemicals.

microcosmicus - 4-4-2008 at 20:39

Nitrobenzene and nitrotoluene are used in Kerr cells (useful as fast electronic shutters
among other applications) because it has an unusually high Kerr constant.

Pauling lists picric acid as an indicator in the range of pH 0 - pH 2.

Rosco Bodine - 4-4-2008 at 20:51

Tiny shaped charges held in the tips of steerable catheters have been used in surgical procedures
for some precision in vivo blasting away at things like
kidney stones .

crazyboy - 4-4-2008 at 21:36

Explosives are sometimes placed on top of a large metal plate which is placed on another metal plate when the explosive detonates the pressure and force weld the flat parts together; an effect impossible with conventional methods.

http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/explosive-welding/explosiv...

Pulverulescent - 5-4-2008 at 10:04

Those chemistry oddities. . .
Picric acid was used as a dye long before its explosive properties were known, and hexanitrodiphenylamine was, at one time, used as a dye called auramine. A golden dye, one imagines!

I remember going through lists of dyes, years ago, hoping it could still be purchased.

Then, some nitro-aromatics have a delicious, fruity almond smell!
As a teenager, encountering gelignite, I wanted to eat the stuff, it smelled so good; looked good too, like a creamy, greasy confection, with those curious-looking little balls in there.

And Henning patented cyclonite as a medicinal compound in 1899, more than twenty years before von Herz patented it as an explosive.
I hear it's also used as rat poison!

So one use was to prolong life, while the other had the opposite effect, as with nitro.

Then there was the woman who found that a tab of viagra placed in her husband's shoe made him limp.

My wife don't need no viagra!

P

Pulverulescent - 5-4-2008 at 10:26

I forgot to mention, beef-tenderising; those detonation products I'm really into!

Ooops! I just realised that, given my location, my previous post could prompt some searching questions.
That war's over, hopefully!

P

unionised - 5-4-2008 at 12:03

"TNT was used as a pigment not too long ago...in its pure state..."
Odd for a white (or very nearly so) chemical. Did you mean picric acid?
"hexanitrodiphenylamine was, at one time, used as a dye called auramine"
Again that seems unlikely.
http://www.roguesci.org/chemlab/energetics/hexanitrodiphenyl...
Things that cause skin burns are not generally well tolerated as dyes.
OTOH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auramine
seems to be a different compound

Pulverulescent - 5-4-2008 at 12:06

Quote:

Originally posted by franklyn

Quote:

Originally posted by nitro-genes
http://www.physorg.com/news124039000.html

Charles E Monroe might have seen the possibilities there a long time ago, and before detasheet!

He found that fragile forms like insects could could be embossed onto steel plate in the minutest detail using explosives.

He used compressed guncotton, but the idea was the same.
And a sculptress (whose name eludes me) in New Mexico makes fascinating explosively-formed works of art!

For me, that'd be the icing on the cake!

P

crazyboy - 5-4-2008 at 12:18

http://evelynrosenberg.com/artist.php?p=45

Pulverulescent - 5-4-2008 at 12:22

Quote:

Originally posted by unionised
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auramine
seems to be a different compound

I checked COPAE, and you're right, unionised, I got it ass-ways.
It was hexanitrodiphenylamine's ammonium salt, and it was called aurantia.

Both it and picric acid (TNP) were yellow dyes.

P

Pulverulescent - 5-4-2008 at 12:40

Quote:

Originally posted by crazyboy
http://evelynrosenberg.com/artist.php?p=45

Yeah, crazyboy, she's quite a woman, and not just for the work she does, if ya get me drift!

P

Pulverulescent - 5-4-2008 at 13:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
Tiny shaped charges held in the tips of steerable catheters have been used in surgical procedures
for some precision in vivo blasting away at things like
kidney stones .

I'd say that'd cause loud belches. . .and smoke-rings without cigarettes! 'Fascinating, though!

P

Pulverulescent - 5-4-2008 at 13:47

While I'm at it, I remember something once about some military guy who had an ashtray made of TNT on his desk.

Cast TNT probably, which wouldn't ignite easily, and insensitive enough for a block of it to be sculpted by hammer and chisel.

Can't you just hear the conversations in both cases?

P

ScienceGeek - 6-4-2008 at 09:03

Yeah, that is actually true (I can't cite a reference though)

It was actually the inventor of TNT who had an ashtray made of TNT to demonstrate the insensibility of it, and if I remember correctly, the actual "insensitivityness" of TNT had not yet been properly recorded.

Quite cold to pull a stunt like that

Pulverulescent - 6-4-2008 at 10:05

'Slightly off-topic, but a question that exercises me from time-to-time is, can cyclonite be safely melted and cast?
Davis gives its m.p. @ 202*C, and says it fumes off @ 290, but doesn't detonate even @ 360.

A match-flame causes it to melt to clear globules before ignition, and its deflagration is a relatively tame affair.
The melted material, though, may be so sensitive that trying it may constitute a death-wish!

I'm still curious, though!

P

microcosmicus - 6-4-2008 at 12:17

Quote:

It was actually the inventor of TNT who had an ashtray
made of TNT to demonstrate the insensibility of it

Too bad he didn't also make the Nobel prize out of it.
An awards ceremony in which someone was handed
trophy made of TNT would be interesting, to say the least

The use of nitrocellulose as a plastic before it
was replaced by the acetate and other plastics would also
count as an example of use of an energetic material for
non-explosive purposes. Back in the day, people had terrible
accidents with shirt collars stiffened with the stuff and even
today, we still have archives full of films stored on this
unstable medium.

[Edited on 6-4-2008 by microcosmicus]

YT2095 - 6-4-2008 at 13:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Pulverulescent
Those chemistry oddities. . .
Picric acid was used as a dye long before its explosive properties were known

I had about 5 grams of that in the Lab under water a while back just for that purpose, and then got rid of it when I realised it`s properties (I`m not licensed to own such materials), Pity as it`s the most Crazy Fantastic Yellow you could ever wish for

a Low explosive that was used commercially in Film and also plastics like screwdriver handles and car window protection, paints, and snooker balls is Cellulose Nitrate, it still has a place in some everyday objects but often at lower nitration and also stabilised (Camphor is a such a stabiliser).

Neil - 6-4-2008 at 13:07

you still find nitro celulose in ping pong balls, nail polish, hair spray and dice...

Pulverulescent - 7-4-2008 at 09:31

KCl03 used to be used in cough sweets as a bactericide and NaCl03 besides being a weedkiller (ouch!) is also a plant-growth hormone if used in minute quantities.

The use of nitrocellulose lacquer allegedly downed a large airship when static caused ignition, leading to the hydrogen catching fire.

There are probably many other similar examples around!

P

ScienceGeek - 7-4-2008 at 10:52

I know this doesn't fall under "Strange uses for energetic materials", but I'll say it anyway.

What I think is quite extreme, is that they coated the Hinderburg (German Zeppelin) with Thermite paint!
Yeah, that's right: they actually made a paint (coating) of fine aluminum powder and Iron Oxide.

I just find it extremely odd that no- one seemed to consider it a potential fire- hazard, especially as Thermite was patented in 1895 (Wikipedia), and the Hindenburg incident was in 1937.

Mythbusters declared the myth that the Thermite coating contributed to the burn- rate: BUSTED, but still...

Pulverulescent - 7-4-2008 at 13:11

Quote:

Originally posted by ScienceGeek
What I think is quite extreme, is that they coated the Hinderburg (German Zeppelin) with Thermite paint!

SG, We may be talking about separate incidents; in case we're not, we'll agree to disagree.

Either substance on an airship lofted by H2 is obviously a disaster in the making!

And people still put aluminium paint onto rusted steel, even in places where there's a fire-danger!

In those old days, though, the ignitibility of these substances wasn't generally well known.

P

microcosmicus - 7-4-2008 at 14:13

Quote:

In those old days, though, the ignitibility of these substances wasn't generally well known.

In that time and place (1930's Germany), the flammability of thermite was quite well
known since it was commonly used in welding. More likely, what happened was that
it never occurred to the paint mixer that the composition of his pigment happened to
be a thermite mixture.

I once saw a documentary where someone went through the old records of the
Zeppelin airship company and found documents from the internal investigation
following the accident where it was noted that the pain was flammable but
suppressed this information so as not to jeopardize the chances of collecting
insurance. (Not to mention what an irate Fuehrer might have done to the doofuses
who embarassed the fatherland in the eyes of the world by painting an airship
with thermite.)

Pulverulescent - 8-4-2008 at 07:42

Quote:

Originally posted by microcosmicus

Quote:

In those old days, though, the ignitibility of these substances wasn't generally well known.

In that time and place (1930's Germany), the flammability of thermite was quite well
known since it was commonly used in welding.

OK, well known, but not generally well known!

Don't forget, thermite is ignited only with difficulty; just putting a match to it won't start the reaction.

And flammable doesn't describe thermite since it contains nothing that normally burns in atmospheric oxygen, and it contains no carbon compounds.

It's ignitible and deflagrating, but you can't call the mixture flammable.

P

Pulverulescent - 8-4-2008 at 09:42

Quote:

Originally posted by ScienceGeek
Yeah, that's right: they actually made a paint (coating) of fine aluminum powder and Iron Oxide.
I just find it extremely odd that no- one seemed to consider it a potential fire- hazard.

'Kinda hard, anyway, to see how thermite would reach its ignition temp of ~1550*C (m.p. of iron) on an airship, by anything short of a direct lightning strike!

I don't buy it!

P

ScienceGeek - 8-4-2008 at 09:58

What is it that you don't buy? It is a fact that they coated the Hindenburg with thermite paint!

I'm not saying that the Thermite paint caused the fire, merely that it's a strange composition to use as paint...

Formatik - 8-4-2008 at 10:09

Nitroglycerin as a therapeutic (it dilates the veins and arteries)!:

http://www.kmhk.kmu.edu.tw/medhome/Intra_med/med_o/search/im...

Pulverulescent - 8-4-2008 at 12:08

Quote:

Originally posted by ScienceGeek
I just find it extremely odd that no- one seemed to consider it a potential fire- hazard, especially as Thermite was patented in 1895.

Calling it a fire-hazard would suggest you considered it as a possible culprit, as indeed I did, but of course, H2 ignites at a third of the temp thermite does.

Paint with Al and Fe203 is still manufactured, BTW!

Al paint on steel is very dangerous, because a sharp blow of steel on Al-painted steel produces a very bright, hot spark, and fires have been triggered in this way.

P

ScienceGeek - 8-4-2008 at 12:39

No, I don't consider it a possible culprit, but I do think it contributed to a certain extent to the fire, once started.

Do they paint modern Zeppelins with Al/Fe2O3 paint?

I don't get your statement on Aluminum on steel...how is that relevant?

I think we're just splitting straws here

Pulverulescent - 8-4-2008 at 13:52

Yes SG, you're right, we are splitting hairs, but the reason, I think, the paint wasn't considered a fire-hazard is because it couldn't have been a fire-hazard, when you think about it.

The hydrogen in the airship would have burned quite quickly.
The paint couldn't possibly have contributed anything, IMO.

I mentioned the Al being painted on steel simply because most people see nothing wrong with it, despite the (obvious) dangers.

(Lead-based paint might be more appropriate in the case of Zeppelins).

P

ScienceGeek - 8-4-2008 at 14:49

OK Pulverulescent...let's leave it at that. Splitting hairs is a waste of time

497 - 8-4-2008 at 16:06

Hydrazine sulfate, pretty close to hydrazine that's used in things like Astrolite and rocket fuel, has been used as an effective cancer treatment. Funny, all that time I though hydrazine was toxic!

http://www.hydrazinesulfate.org/

[Edited on 8-4-2008 by 497]

Pulverulescent - 9-4-2008 at 02:33

Just one more hair/straw, perhaps!
The point (and it may be a minor one) I was trying to make, ScienceGeek, was that the assumption that thermite paint is hazardous in all situations doesn't seem to bear scrutiny.

You say potaato, I say potayto!

P

Pulverulescent - 9-4-2008 at 02:45

So anyway, these interesting materials kill--- *and* cure.
Kinda' schizoid!

P

grndpndr - 19-5-2008 at 04:14

Quote:

Originally posted by crazyboy
Explosives are sometimes placed on top of a large metal plate which is placed on another metal plate when the explosive detonates the pressure and force weld the flat parts together; an effect impossible with conventional methods.

http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/explosive-welding/explosiv...

Wondering if this isn't the method used to 'weld'/bond dissimilar metals such as depleted Uranium/armor steel/other"secret'
materials into sheets of chobham or composite armor as youll notice composite armor is always angular in shape never does it have a curved surface.The process must include other methods however as i understand chobham armor also contains ceramics to deal with HEAT charges and while reactive armor will only defeat 1HEAT round per panel, COMPOSITE armor will defeat multiple hits in the same area from ATGMs w/HEAT warheads even the dual warhead HEAT round.Fascnatingly imple process the example of it saw, the metal to be bonded/welded was placed on top f each other on a flat surfce a form was built like a concrete form for a sidewalk several inches above the metal plates the excess powdered HE was screeded off similar to a concrete form and an edge of the square was detonated resulting in a slightly curved plate. OFF topic but ww2 germn experiments tried to laminate dissimilar metals for the same purpose super armored plate,less wieght more protection just as todays composite armor posseses

Ramiel - 21-5-2008 at 04:12

Originally posted by : grndpndr

rective armor

That qualifies as an unlikely use for explosive as protection against other explosve effects specifically the monroe effect of RPGs /ATGMs with whats commonly referred to as reactive armor .In that the Armor made up of sections of thin steel armor sandwiched with insensitive HE in the middle and attached to the vehicle armor thats to be upgraded in small sections.When struck by std HEAT charge the plate is penetrated detonating the HE .with the now accelerating Reactive armor plate disrupting the HEAT jet.The now common way around this is dual heat warheads the first smaller warhead detonating the reactive armor and the second HEAT charge detonating a split second later mitigating any effect on the second charge in the warhead.

even a small heat charge in my torso?!

Pulverulescent - 21-5-2008 at 08:02

Somehow, I don't think using one explosive device to defeat another comes into the category "Strange Uses".

P

grndpndr - 21-5-2008 at 12:44

No use in arguing perceptions. I would say ingenious never the less and not something that jumps to mind given the fact it took some 60 years to devise.The simple fact it took that long for the finest armaments labs to find this apparently simple solution is enough a least for me to call it a strange/definetly unique, use for an explosive.

Pulverulescent - 21-5-2008 at 12:55

Unique, yes, ingenious, certainly---wily old Ruskies!

P

Argon Flash

Liedenfrost - 30-5-2008 at 10:35

I'm actually trying to find more data on ''argon flash'' at the moment but basically a vessel filled with argon gas and a small amount of a solid explosive produces such a bright flash in the UV spectrum and as well as visible on detonation that it is used to photograph explosive events.

wikipedia has a bit of info on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argon_flash

This is my first post.

-=HeX=- - 30-5-2008 at 11:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Liedenfrost
I'm actually trying to find more data on ''argon flash'' at the moment but basically a vessel filled with argon gas and a small amount of a solid explosive produces such a bright flash in the UV spectrum and as well as visible on detonation that it is used to photograph explosive events.

wikipedia has a bit of info on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argon_flash

This is my first post.

Liedenfrost: I have quite a lot of info about such devices, my email is lordi--101@hotmail.com and i am working on an xenon based variant at the moment.

grndpndr - 30-5-2008 at 16:22

Does ths method produce a single frame at the momet of detonation or are several frames able to be made with the proper camera?

-=HeX=- - 31-5-2008 at 08:09

I am not sure about the photography bit, I am developing my system as a non lethal blinding weapon with wide effects. Think of a giant flashbang grenade :p and you will get it. I imagine it would be very effective against aircraft to blind the pilot. An improvised variant involves a ball of cast ETN with loads of the flash tubes from disposable cameras embedded into it as xenon works better than argon.

hashashan - 1-6-2008 at 00:13

How about MEKP as polystyrene resin hardener... now is that weired or what?

12AX7 - 1-6-2008 at 04:55

Perhaps, but only as weird as benzoyl peroxide and etc.

Considering the safer alternatives, it does seem kind of odd though. Is it that it must be reactive enough?

Tim

Liedenfrost - 2-6-2008 at 14:28

I've heard of some DIY chemists using Picric acid for weed killing.