Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Short question / quick answer - Thread

Short question / quick answer - Thread

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NeonPulse - 20-9-2015 at 18:23

Agreed there. The precursors are easy to get and very little skill or knowledge is needed to make acetone peroxide the synthesis is widely published and common on many how to sites and the yields are good so why not? Also the younger more inexperienced really have no idea on just how bad an accident with this stuff could be. younger people do take more risks. See that video of the Indian kid pressing 1g of peroxide in foil with his bare hands? If he really knew what he was doing he would not be doing that.

NeonPulse - 22-9-2015 at 18:26

I accidentally posted twice the exact same post by resendjng the same info but I can't seem to delete it.
so can a mod pls remove it?

Goshunkar - 23-9-2015 at 06:09

Hello,
I would like to test this receipt :
Do you think it would explode (with a small booster and confinement from a steel pipe) ?
AN-Gel :

Ammonium Nitrate 250g 55%
Potassium Nitrate 45g 10%
Aluminum powder 68g 15%
Sugar 23g 5%
Guar Gum 11g 2.5%
Borax 4.5g 1%
Water 68g 15%

Can water be substituted with H2O2 (50% solution)? If so, is the resulting explosion more powerful ? And can the gel be stored for a long time (with H2O2) ? What is the function of the Borax powder and KNO3 ?

I would also like to test a mixture I read about here :
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3214&a...
H2O2 - glycerine
Since I can buy H202 (50% solution) cheaply , this is interesting. In the attachment of user jpsmith123 : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=59003&a... ; I read this line in the table : H202 : 34% ; glycerine : 15% ; water 51 %.
But does 'do' mean that it actually exploded ?
If so : would 85 % of H2O2 (50% solution) and 15% glycerine be a good cap sensitive explosive ?

[Edited on 23-9-2015 by Goshunkar]

Where can I get this igniter (or make it)

bb911gt4 - 24-9-2015 at 07:19

Hey guys,
Have you ever seen these igniters?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcAjHuS1L4

Any idea where I can get them or how they're made? It looks like a coil of wire that is pulled through another piece of metal. What chemicals are used?

I would prefer to buy them pre-made but I would could make them as well.

Thanks!

Bot0nist - 24-9-2015 at 07:26

A friction sensitive pyrogen mixed with adhesive and applied to a potion of the string. This segment is pulled through a tight, abrasive opening, which ignights it, and pulled it into a small charge of a hot burning or spark throwing pyro mix. The flames amd sparks are directed away from the string puller. If I were to guess.

Similar, in a way, to those novelty poppers that have a pull strings on either side.

[Edited on 24-9-2015 by Bot0nist]

You could probably rig it with match heads, and the striker portions of the box. A slow burning black powder or rcandy could work as the fire starter mix.

[Edited on 24-9-2015 by Bot0nist]

Bert - 24-9-2015 at 07:38

Firefox sells kits for making this type of igniter. Paint ball players use such to ignite smoke devices, among other things.

http://www.firefox-fx.com/kits.htm

This general type of pull wire/pull string igniter has been in common use since Potassium chlorate became available to pyrotechnists- Used to ignite everything from USA civil war era muzzle loading cannons to Vietcong hand grenades. A look at the Tenney Davis COPAE book in the forum library may disclose mixtures.

PHILOU Zrealone - 24-9-2015 at 13:49

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

The origin of this question is some comments in Naoum on use of high density oxidizers for dopes in low NG wartime mining explosives (dynamite dope formulations): For example, the higher VOD resulting from density change when substituting KClO4 for NH3NO3 offsetting the lowered VOD otherwise caused by a very low NG content.

Off the top of your head-

What are the highest density choices available among inorganic perchlorates, nitrates or chlorates, qualifying as being of a reasonably non hygroscopic nature... That is, compounds that one could leave a sample of sitting exposed to air for several days at STP and around 90% relative humidity, and not have it convert itself into a puddle!

Extra points for compounds that are reasonably stable in storage from -40 to at least 80C., and don't present a horrible handling problem due to toxicity, corrosive/reactive towards common engineering materials, etc.

Industrial choices of oxidizers in military and civil pyrotechnics typically being driven by OTHER considerations than density (such as economics), what if we think outside the box...

Google has not been my friend (so far) on this question.

(Edit)
My first thought was Barium nitrate and perchlorate at densities around 3.29 & 3.2, respectively. But a bit toxic-

[Edited on 19-9-2015 by Bert]

This question is a hard one!
NG is already over-oxygenated so adding oxydiser will make little use if the rest of the "dopes" is not a fuel.

Assuming it is a fuel, ideally it should be explosive, high density and with a negative OB...then adding an oxydiser will maybe enhance the explosive power or at least allow it to remain stable despite being lower at NG and explosive fuel.

This effect is seen with Ammatols (mixes of NH4NO3 and TNT), Baratols (mixes of Ba(NO3)2 and TNT), Sodatols (mixes of NaNO3 and TNT). The "inexpensive"/"cheap" oxydiser allows to get nearly the same explosive characteristics as plain TNT...the oxydisers increases the heat output by burning the fuel available of the negative OB part of the TNT.

The question is not easy because high density negative OB explosives like TATNB mixed with NH4ClO4 yield a mix that is beneficial to each other (synergic) and result in higher detonic performances than each explosive material appart/alone (near the 9500 m/s VOD for the mix).

But in the case of oxydisers with a metal (heavy), not only the ratio of the amount of oxygen weight vs the metal dead weight is important... for example Al(ClO4)3 would be better than Mg(ClO4)2 itself better than NaClO4; but it is not clear if the mass of the metal dead weight may have a detonic impact on VOD and brisance or if the benefit only comes from the added burnt fuel and overal energy output...normaly it should be detrimental to the exhaust gas speed (what is enhanced by light gases).

A simple comparison between several stoechiometric mixes may give a precise answer to this... vs TATNB or TNT and vs each other...
TATNB or TNT / LiClO4
TATNB or TNT / NaClO4
TATNB or TNT / KClO4
TATNB or TNT / NH4ClO4
TATNB or TNT / Mg(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ca(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Sr(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ba(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Al(ClO4)3
TATNB or TNT / Ni(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ni(ClO4)3

TATNB or TNT / LiIO4
TATNB or TNT / NaIO4
TATNB or TNT / KIO4
TATNB or TNT / NH4IO4
TATNB or TNT / Mg(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ca(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Sr(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ba(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Al(IO4)3
TATNB or TNT / Ni(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ni(IO4)3

This should prove the effect or not:
-of heavier metal (Li vs Na vs K ; Mg vs Ca vs Sr vs Ba)
-of heavier non-metal (Cl vs I)
-of higher valence metals, thus increasing OB of the oxydiser
(Na vs Mg vs Al; Al vs Ni(III); Ni(II) vs Ni(III))
(stoechiometry would thus need proportionally less oxydiser (by weight) vs explosive fuel)

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

Looking at the Wikipedia article (lazy!), I see a density of 3.327 g/cc for Cesium perchlorate vs. 2.52 for KClO4. Also an even lower water solubility than KClO4 AND decomposition temperature of 250 C, compared to the 400 C and up for KClO4...

Have not yet looked at the reactivity and prices and so shattered my illusions.

A recently linked article in Axt's OTC pentryl article mentions the use of a percentage of KClO4 added to boosters made with pentryl as further enhancing pentryl's (already rather good) power, but with no specific mention of BRISSANCE. Let's daydream a bit further, perhaps there's an application for such a mix in base charges and small boosters?

(Edit)
Pentryl has a listed density of 1.68g/cc, and an Oxygen balance of -46%. An admixture of Barium or Cesium perchlorate at over 3G/cc density should give a decent increase in density, possibly boosting VOD/brissance and help oxidize some of that leftover Carbon for more heat output ... Where will the "sweet spot" in performance as a booster fall in any trade off between total power output and potentially increased VOD/brissance? Enquiring minds want to know!

[Edited on 21-9-2015 by Bert]

[Edited on 23-9-2015 by Bert]

It is evident that if the oxydiser is already a high detonating explosive, this will kick even more the VOD and brisance.
The following are interesting cases of oxydisers because the VOD and density are high but some of them display slighly reduced performances when used alone because strongly overoxygenated...

So probably worth a try:
TATNB or TNT / N2H5NO3 (already VOD 8900 m/s alone)
TATNB or TNT / N2H5ClO4 (already VOD 7500 m/s alone)
TATNB or TNT / N2H5IO4 (unstable?)
TATNB or TNT / N2H5C(NO2)3
TATNB or TNT / HONH2.HNO3 (already VOD 8000 m/s alone)
TATNB or TNT / HONH2.HClO4
TATNB or TNT / HONH2.HIO4 (if stable)
TATNB or TNT / HONH2.HC(NO2)3

Of course any dense nitroaromatic HE would do the job if displaying a negative OB...the denser the best...
TNB, TeNN, Tetryl, Pentryl, poly-trinitrophenylene, tri-methylnitramino-trinitrobenzene (hextryl), trimethylol-trinitrobenzene trinitrate, ...
...

[Edited on 25-9-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Goshunkar - 25-9-2015 at 04:55

Quote: Originally posted by Goshunkar

Hello,
I would like to test this receipt :
...

No answers for me ?

specialactivitieSK - 25-9-2015 at 05:38

Tested someone ammonium trichromate (NH4) 2Cr3O10. Which is formed by crystallization of ammonium dichromate nitric acid spec. weight 1.39 g / cm3 (Siewert, 1862). This compound explodes at 190 ° C, giving rise to NO and NO2.

[Edited on 25-9-2015 by specialactivitieSK]

PHILOU Zrealone - 25-9-2015 at 08:42

Quote: Originally posted by Goshunkar

Hello,
I would like to test this receipt :
Do you think it would explode (with a small booster and confinement from a steel pipe) ?
AN-Gel :

Ammonium Nitrate 250g 55%
Potassium Nitrate 45g 10%
Aluminum powder 68g 15%
Sugar 23g 5%
Guar Gum 11g 2.5%
Borax 4.5g 1%
Water 68g 15%

Can water be substituted with H2O2 (50% solution)? If so, is the resulting explosion more powerful ? And can the gel be stored for a long time (with H2O2) ? What is the function of the Borax powder and KNO3 ?

I would also like to test a mixture I read about here :
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3214&a...
H2O2 - glycerine
Since I can buy H202 (50% solution) cheaply , this is interesting. In the attachment of user jpsmith123 : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=59003&a... ; I read this line in the table : H202 : 34% ; glycerine : 15% ; water 51 %.
But does 'do' mean that it actually exploded ?
If so : would 85 % of H2O2 (50% solution) and 15% glycerine be a good cap sensitive explosive ?

1°) Glad you want to test... don't forget to report succes
And maybe tell us where you did find the receipe...
2°) NH4NO3 water gels need good detonator, confinement and also very critical...the pipe diameter...too small will lead to no detonation --> critical diameter of detonation.
3°) H2O2 will work, but formula must certainly be adapted because of OB...more oxydiser --> more fuel needed.
H2O2 will help getting micro-bubbles what sensitize the NH4NO3 explosive gels...but it will also decrease storage stability...especially in steel pipe (iron --> rust --> not compatible with H2O2).
4°) Borax and KNO3 are probably present for OB and for viscosity of the water gel.
5°) If the patent says so, then you must be in the sensitive triangle area (H2O2/H2O/Glycerol) (the stoechimetric line is probably the more sensitive one)...The "do" in table 1 does indeed mean detonation/explosion.

Goshunkar - 26-9-2015 at 11:29

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Thanks for your answer.
I got the first receipt from a dubious website : http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/wars_and_weapons/other/Impr...
The pipe has a diameter of 5.1 cm. Wide enough ?

I will report the result.

I guess the H202-glycerine explosive has to be confined too ?

PHILOU Zrealone - 26-9-2015 at 11:38

@Goshunkar,
You thus forgot the Aluminium powder inside your mix...
In your link: Aluminum powder 68g 15%

Diameter 5.1cm should be enough...especially with H2O2...H2O2/Al/gel was tested by Axt in plastic bag.

Goshunkar - 26-9-2015 at 11:44

Nope, I didn't forget the Al powder ...

Are you referring to http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3214 ?
He used another composition

PHILOU Zrealone - 28-9-2015 at 01:39

Quote: Originally posted by Goshunkar

Nope, I didn't forget the Al powder ...

Are you referring to http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3214 ?
He used another composition

Yes...as written earlier H2O2/Al/gel ... thus looked pretty close to what you intend to do with H2O2 since Al was listed in the reference source receipt you provided...but not in the receipt you wrote

BTW: Al would boost things up and sensitize the mix even more...

James Ikanov - 29-9-2015 at 09:37

So, I have what might be one of the dumbest questions I've asked in a while...... Does anyone know of any synthesis or inquiry related to the nitrites (not nitro, NO groups) of toluene or other similar compounds (xylene, benzene) ? The closest I could find was a paper written in the late sixties in london that was using it to figure out the stereospecificity of xylene.

As an aside, I was wondering if anyone had any solid information on the properties of nitroxylene (20ml of Xylene). I recently made some using the commercial grade stuff (at least, I think) through solution of sulfuric acid(50ml)/KNO3(15g, way way too much). After I added the xylene it stratified rather quickly, even when stirred. I then poured it into a separatory funnel. It stayed separated into layers and I drained off the acid into some water very slowly (what I think is nitroxylene stuck towards the top), and was left with a milky white fluid which I poured off into an amber sample jar and refrigerated.
I am very interested in seeing if I can find anyone who has sample to compare to or some other information on the topic. Even if it's a very wimpy explosive I'm still somewhat interested just because of how incredibly easy it was to make this small-ish sample.

I've exhausted my ability to find information on either at this point, I think.

kecskesajt - 30-9-2015 at 05:47

There is a compuond called nitrosobenzene, C6H5NO.
Also, trinitroxylene is a waxy, solid material.What you made might be a mix of mononitroxylene and xylene.For the nitration of xylene you need fuming HNO3.

Thanatops1s - 30-9-2015 at 18:35

So after my second attempt I had a successful DDNP synthesis. I did a quick seach but wanted a more definite answer as to what is the best method of storage. I don't plan on storing it for an extremely long time and no more than a few grams. Just wanted to be as safe as possible. Thanks.

j_sum1 - 2-10-2015 at 22:07

I figured here was the best place for my question, so here goes.
I have almost zero interest in EM and certainly no experience. However, if aga can do organic, then I can do something combustable.

My four year old son has developed an interest in "rocket ships". I figured a quick and simple rocket in the back yard might be just the thing. Preferably something that "squirts fire".
What I would like is a relatively safe and straightforward design and a suitable propellant mix. I have plenty of potassium nitrate that I can use.

Suggestions?

Bert - 3-10-2015 at 00:13

And another pyro is born...

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/

Do you want to fly, (rocket engine) or just have the device emit a jet of sparks (gerb).

Either way, a black powder type mix would be a suitable fuel. Perhaps with an additive for spark production, such as 80 mesh charcoal, steel powder or fine Titanium sponge.

Basic device construction is the same, a tube filled with fuel. The rocket usually has a central hollow core to give a larger burning surface, the gerb usually just burns from the end and so has a longer burn time.

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/rockets.ht...

image.jpg - 17kB

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by Bert]

ecos - 3-10-2015 at 00:50

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

I figured here was the best place for my question, so here goes.
I have almost zero interest in EM and certainly no experience. However, if aga can do organic, then I can do something combustable.

My four year old son has developed an interest in "rocket ships". I figured a quick and simple rocket in the back yard might be just the thing. Preferably something that "squirts fire".
What I would like is a relatively safe and straightforward design and a suitable propellant mix. I have plenty of potassium nitrate that I can use.

Suggestions?

Try this but be careful : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12fR9neVnS8

NedsHead - 3-10-2015 at 01:03

j_sum1, do you plan on actually launching a rocket or just doing a static test in the dirt for fun? I whipped up something one afternoon about a year ago using a kitchen wrap tube capped at one end with duct tape, potassium nitrate, sucrose, a little glucose and a pinch of iron oxide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5b_uScBVJk

The footage isn’t great and I picked an overcast, rainy day to do it (was worried about fires) but you get the idea.
It was heaps of fun and I'll do it again sometime.

if you want I’ll dig up the mix ratios I used.

edit: fixed link, also, the chuffing was from the electric igniter not being pushed far enough into the core

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by NedsHead]

j_sum1 - 3-10-2015 at 02:23

Thanks for the answers Bert and Ned. Since posting, I have taken a look at a couple of YT vids. This one impressed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12fR9neVnS8

I was thinking more along the lines of sugar rather than black powder since I do not currently have any charcoal available. Something added to give a bit more of a visible flame would be good. I do have Ti powder and Al powder if that helps. I have copper nitrate too which I assume would give a green colour.

I really don't want anything too powerful. I will probably scale down pretty small. I live in a suburban area and only need a lift of 15-20 metres maximum.

And to answer your question, NedsHead, a rocket ship has to fly. But according to the boss, "It's not supposed to go to space because that's too far."

[edit]
missed your post, ecos. You linked the very same one vid that I found.

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by j_sum1]

NedsHead - 3-10-2015 at 04:09

sounds like the boss has things under control j_sum1, adding Al powder will give the rocket ship a nice glittering tail. I wouldn’t recommend using PVC pipe as a motor casing because if the core over pressurizes and you have a CATO you will have shards of PVC flying everywhere. melt casting might be easier than all that tamping

melt casting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyPysthIRss

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by NedsHead]

Bert - 3-10-2015 at 05:01

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Thanks for the answers Bert and Ned. Since posting, I have taken a look at a couple of YT vids. This one impressed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12fR9neVnS8

I was thinking more along the lines of sugar rather than black powder since I do not currently have any charcoal available. Something added to give a bit more of a visible flame would be good. I do have Ti powder and Al powder if that helps. I have copper nitrate too which I assume would give a green colour.

I really don't want anything too powerful. I will probably scale down pretty small. I live in a suburban area and only need a lift of 15-20 metres maximum.

And to answer your question, NedsHead, a rocket ship has to fly. But according to the boss, "It's not supposed to go to space because that's too far."

[edit]
missed your post, ecos. You linked the very same one vid that Ik found.

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by j_sum1]

Black powder charcoal is fairly easy to achieve- My first junior high school chemistry lab was "destructive distillation of wood". And it's even easier if you're not condensing the vapors for later analysis... A clean metal paint can or old cookie tin with a small hole punched in the bottom, set on the BBQ grill until the smoke comin out the bottom hole stops burning. Set on dirt or sand and allow to cool completely.

Sugar rockets have approximate 1.5 times the specific impulse of old fashioned black powder, FYI! So if you WANT low performance, something to consider there- Copper nitrate (cuprous? cupric???) may not color a Carbon rich flame too well, and AFAIK both are hygroscopic, which is a bad thing. Copper carbonate or black Copper oxide are my usual choices in a blue flame colorant.

Try dissolving the Copper nitrate in methanol and making a "ghost mine" with it instead...

Fine Aluminum powder will probably burn inside the combustion chamber, rather than providing a silver spark "tail", Ti works better. Charcoal works for gold spark tail, and grain size is easier to alter than Ti.

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by Bert]

j_sum1 - 5-10-2015 at 17:54

Reporting back.
I mixed up a 62/38 blend of KNO3 and powdered sugar. Actually, a lot more than I intended since I inadvertently made a 38/62 blend and had to add some more nitrate.
A test burned nice and feisty. My rocket engine design needs a bit more work. Attempting to keep things small scale, I packed the material inside short sections of drinking straw. But, I gave little thought to the nozzle, had no decent fuse and with the narrow diameter, I did not drill a core hole. Lots of smoke and fizzing but little in the way of flight. Turns out that Mr 4 wasn't that interested this time around anyway. Miss 7 thought it was great. We had a good time adding various agents to the fuel mix to achieve different kinds of sparkles and colour. Ti powder was definitely the most impressive although Zn powder was pretty cool too. (I think however the Zn was too fine.) Strontium carbonate failed to produce the red I was hoping for and CuO didn't produce a particularly vibrant colour either.
I have quite a bit left and will attempt a casting some time -- probably with some titanium added.

Tabun - 15-10-2015 at 06:40

Guys...firework cake:12 cardboard tubes with 6 40mm shoots/each tube.How much black powder would take take(for lift,give me an example)?

[Edited on 15-10-2015 by Tabun]

Gargamel - 15-10-2015 at 08:55

Quote:

12 cardboard tubes with 6 40mm shoots/each tube

That would mean some kind of roman candle construction?

It's hard to answer your question, because there are to many uncertain factors involved.
In a "normal" cake I would use something like 15-20% of your bombette weight, assuming
-your BP is of good quality
-and your bombettes fit in the tube with very little play.

Advice:
don't start with to complicated devices. Try to create a single shot with one bombette first and dial it in properly. That does not sound to hard, but just try it, if your new to pyro it will take you some time until it works.

Tabun - 15-10-2015 at 10:49

I don't know if it's called the same in english,I found that cake translation after looking at some videos.We call it "Firework battery" here.An array of tubes with shells launching one after another.

By the way...can you tell me if H3 can be trusted?Not for lift,not for power,not for shock/thermal sensitivity but for how much it can stay safe and good if nothing interacts with it(like sulfur).I can't find too many videos or info on it.

[Edited on 15-10-2015 by Tabun]

Gargamel - 15-10-2015 at 12:14

We call it "battery" too. Like a battery of guns. "Cake" is American.

Quote:

An array of tubes with shells launching one after another.

Yes. But usually there is only one shot in every barrel.

Quote:

can you tell me if H3 can be trusted?

Yes it can. If one knows how to handle it. H3 can be trusted, inexperienced users usually not

It could be used for lift in small calibres or to break shells.

But anything you have in mind can be done with BP alone, without the chlorate related troubles. It's hard not to have any sulphur contact.
Or your bombettes have nitrate and metal in them -> ammonia -> ammonium chlorate.
Or your cake is a used salvaged one and has acidic residues in the tubes...
ect. ect.

If you want to do some serous pyro, you cannot avoid to learn how to make proper BP. I would suggest not to take H3 as a shortcut.

Tabun - 16-10-2015 at 09:47

I wasn't thinking about using H3 for lift.I know BP doesn't work too well for firecrackers so I was thinking about the H3.It comes in contact only with the tube and the fuse...

[Edited on 16-10-2015 by Tabun]

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-10-2015 at 10:02

Quote: Originally posted by James Ikanov

So, I have what might be one of the dumbest questions I've asked in a while...... Does anyone know of any synthesis or inquiry related to the nitrites (not nitro, NO groups) of toluene or other similar compounds (xylene, benzene) ? The closest I could find was a paper written in the late sixties in london that was using it to figure out the stereospecificity of xylene.

As an aside, I was wondering if anyone had any solid information on the properties of nitroxylene (20ml of Xylene). I recently made some using the commercial grade stuff (at least, I think) through solution of sulfuric acid(50ml)/KNO3(15g, way way too much). After I added the xylene it stratified rather quickly, even when stirred. I then poured it into a separatory funnel. It stayed separated into layers and I drained off the acid into some water very slowly (what I think is nitroxylene stuck towards the top), and was left with a milky white fluid which I poured off into an amber sample jar and refrigerated.
I am very interested in seeing if I can find anyone who has sample to compare to or some other information on the topic. Even if it's a very wimpy explosive I'm still somewhat interested just because of how incredibly easy it was to make this small-ish sample.

I've exhausted my ability to find information on either at this point, I think.

If you are refering to Ar-N=O compounds then those are nitroso-aromatics and not nitrites what would be Ar-O-N=O.
Nitrites of aromatic compounds would be mixed anhydrides of phenic acid (phenol) and nitrous acid...
Ar-O-H + HO-N=O <==--> Ar-O-N=O + H2O
and as such unstable usually transfering the nitrosonium cation in para (or in ortho if the para position is not free) of the phenate anion...
Ar-O-N=O <--==> Ar-O(-) + N=O(+) --> (-)O-Ar-N=O + H(+) --> HO-Ar-N=O (nitrosophenol)

Phenols do react very easily with nitrous acid, nitrous esters or nitrosonium generators like Cl-N=O (nitrosyl chloride).

Alkylbenzene need more activation to introduce a nitrosonium so maybe mesitylene (1,3,5-Ar(CH3)3) will make a nitrosomesitylene.
I doubt 1,3-xylene (m-xylene) will do it (and this would be the more favourable one since 1,2-xylene (o-xylene) or 1,4-xylene (p-xylene) will have counteractive activation from their methyls groups.

You used commercial grade xylene and this contains normaly all three flavors (ortho, meta and para xylene) thus you already start with an horrible array of possible mononitrocompounds (2 for ortho, 3 for meta (with two major and one minor) and 1 for para.
This may account for your oily stuff (each compound will depress the melting point of the other) even if you succeeded in full polynitration of xylenes.
Also the methyl groups tends to lower the mp of the poly-nitroaromatics and the density...they also lead to worst OB...yielding poor TNT équivalents.

underground - 27-10-2015 at 11:17

Q1)Can HEs like ETN or RDX e.t.c. be used as anion or cation ? Like dinitroguanidine (ammonium dinitroguanidine / dinitroguanidine nitrate) ?

Q2) Can guanidine and glyoxal react with the same way as urea and glyoxal does to form glycouryl ? but replace the two C=O bonds with N=O bonds

[Edited on 27-10-2015 by underground]

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 27-10-2015 at 16:24

Quote: Originally posted by underground

Q1)Can HEs like ETN or RDX e.t.c. be used as anion or cation ? Like dinitroguanidine (ammonium dinitroguanidine / dinitroguanidine nitrate) ?

Q2) Can guanidine and glyoxal react with the same way as urea and glyoxal does to form glycouryl ? but replace the two C=O bonds with N=O bonds

[Edited on 27-10-2015 by underground]

If you look at RDX, its a stabalized ring compound and does not have acidic H atoms, therefore it can not be a anion..
it also does not have any groups to protonate so RDX can not be a cation too.

Erythritol is a sugar and same story..

[Edited on 28-10-2015 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

ecos - 28-10-2015 at 07:43

did anyone succeed in synthesis of triaminotrinitrobenzene ?
if yes, what was your setup and the synthesis path you used?

[Edited on 28-10-2015 by ecos]

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-10-2015 at 10:53

Quote: Originally posted by underground

Q1) Not per se, but one may imagine some groupings added to such HE strutures that may display acidic or basic properties to help getting such ionic character favorizing the making of salts
-CO2H (carboxyl)
-CH2-NO2 (nitromethyl)
-CH(-N=O)-NO2 (nitroso-nitromethyl)
-CH(NO2)2 (dinitromethyl)
-NH-Ar(NO2)3 (trinitroanilidyl)
-SO3H
-CO-NH-CO-
-CH(C#N)2
...
-NH2
-NH-CH3
-N(CH3)2
-C(=NH)-NH2
-NH-C(=NH)-NH2
-idem supra but with NH2-NH2 dérivatives
...
-Tetrazolyl group
...

There are plenty of possibilities, only limit is your imagination and the stability (chemical but also storage and sensitivity) of the explosophoric groups towards the added acidic or basic group.

Example based on the building block "(O2N)3C-CH2-":
(O2N)3C-CH2-CO2H + H2N-NH-CH2-C(NO2)3 --> (O2N)3C-CH2-CO2H3N-NH-CH2-C(NO2)3

Q2) It is actually C=NH groups that replace the two C=O groups not N=O ones!

Maybe that guanidine and glyoxal tends to form a 3D polymeric material instead of the wished polycyclic or caged molecule...
The 3 NH2 in guanidine may indeed react equivalently.

[Edited on 29-10-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]

underground - 31-10-2015 at 05:04

Yes i mean C=NH groups that replace the two C=O groups
I want to avoid the hydrolysis duo to C=O group.
Overall looks a really powerfull and easy to make HE for it's performance

Touch powder

dieglegold - 2-11-2015 at 10:52

I have seen the term "touch powder" mentioned on this blog site. What is touch powder?

aga - 2-11-2015 at 11:09

Probably nitrogen triiodide.

Unlikely to ever see it as a powder, at least not for long.

Explodes at the slightest energy input.

Bot0nist - 2-11-2015 at 12:10

Armstrong's mix, made with finely divided and good quality red phosphorus and potassium chlorate will deflagrate or detonate very easily. A gentle poke from a wooden dowel or popsicle stick is often enough for a surprise. This mix is a powder and would likely fit your description.

If you decide to mix some, use only very small amounts. Like 100 mg or less. Blending the reactants often causes them to ignite, even when just diapering them in paper, I have heard. Larger batches will cause bodily harm to the mixer, especially if there is enough powder being mixed, or the batch is partially confined enough to detonate.

[Edited on 2-11-2015 by Bot0nist]

dieglegold - 3-11-2015 at 09:40

I have made nitrogen triiodide ever since I was a kid. It is a wickedly dangerous compound, and a lot of fun.

I have purchased, from a magic supply house, red phosphorus and a white powder, most like potassium perchlorate (or chlorate?) When a bit of red phosphorus is smeared on the forefinger and a bit of the white powder is smeared on the thumb, one can make a loud bang by snapping the fingers. (No, I don't do this very often!)

PETN, ETN ect. neutralisation, carbonate vs. bicarbonate

dangerous amateur - 3-11-2015 at 10:26

Hi Guys,

I wonder what works better for neutralisation purposes.

Last time I used sodium carbonate for neutralisation of my PETN before recrystalising.

But the sodium carbonate doesn't dissolve very well and leaves behind a milky tint in the water, which is hard to wash of the PETN.

Would sodium bicarbonate be more suitable for the job?

Bert - 3-11-2015 at 14:35

Quote: Originally posted by dieglegold

I have purchased, from a magic supply house, red phosphorus and a white powder, most like potassium perchlorate (or chlorate?) When a bit of red phosphorus is smeared on the forefinger and a bit of the white powder is smeared on the thumb, one can make a loud bang by snapping the fingers. (No, I don't do this very often!)

How long ago was such a combination of chemicals sold, and in what COUNTRY?!

And how did your fingers feel after...

Explosive colophony rosin?!

Bert - 5-11-2015 at 09:00

One of my crew is a violist, sent me this:

http://www.theviolinchannel.com/violin-rosin-confiscated-chi...

Chinese customs inspectors seem to think rosin used on bows of violins & etc. is dangerously explosive?!

It certainly will BURN- But outside of some rather old pyrotechnic star mixes and some equally old fashioned salute mixtures with Potassium chlorate, what could be their justification?

Quote:

Word is circulating today that a number of string players have had their rosin confiscated, from their cases at Chinese airports, in recent weeks – with airport officials claiming it is a potential explosive.

A Hong Kong newspaper, Mingpao has reported cellist Trey Lee’s rosin was seized when departing Shanghai International airport earlier this month – with lengthy claims to its potential security risk.

British violin virtuoso Daniel Hope has also indicated, via social media that he too experienced a similar confrontational incident when departing Shanghai in recent weeks.

ALICE as EM

ecos - 6-11-2015 at 16:16

Hi All,

I found this table in Patent US 20120216926 A1 It is about new propellent that consists of Al + ice water or hydrated compound.

The numbers surprised me ! does this mean that ALICE can be a better explosive than TNT ? what would be the expected VoD ?

[Edited on 7-11-2015 by ecos]

How often do you recrystallize your ETN?

dangerous amateur - 13-11-2015 at 11:03

Yes I know, until it's neutral.

But how many steps does it usually take for you to get it 100% neutral?

I usually wash it with sodium carbonate solution first, then with additional water.
Then I recristallize it from ethanol.

I cannot find any acid detectable with ph strips.

However, would you recristalize a second time?

OneEyedPyro - 13-11-2015 at 11:44

Depends on how you recrystallize it, if you used a fair excess of alcohol with the dissolve/crash method you should be fine.
Two or three is better than one but in my experience it's usually pretty storage stable after just one with that said I wouldn't be making cast charges with it.

[Edited on 13-11-2015 by OneEyedPyro]

dangerous amateur - 14-11-2015 at 10:21

Thanks.
No melting is intended.

Do you use something to neutralize the residual acid trapped in the cristals during the recristallization process, or do you just rely on the alcohol to dillute it?

Because I found both sodium carbonate and bicarbonate wont dissolve in ethanol.

OneEyedPyro - 14-11-2015 at 16:48

Like I said, it depends on the type of recrystallization you perform.

If you heat your solvent, dissolve ETN then cool to recrystallize you should have quite pure ETN.

If you dissolve ETN then dump it into cold water to recystallize you can always add a carbonate/bicarb or a stabilizer such as urea to the water.

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-11-2015 at 13:53

Quote: Originally posted by ecos

Hi All,

I found this table in Patent US 20120216926 A1 It is about new propellent that consists of Al + ice water or hydrated compound.

The numbers surprised me ! does this mean that ALICE can be a better explosive than TNT ? what would be the expected VoD ?

[Edited on 7-11-2015 by ecos]

If you look at the meaning of energy density, you will soon realize that many things are better than TNT or usual HE.
Typical examples are compressed hydrogen or pure carbon dust...also comes to mind superfuels like dicyanoacetylen, dicyanohexadiyne or boranes.

But those doesn't display explosophoric properties alone, you need an oxydizer.

What is good for a propellant application is not always good for blasting/cuting materials.

The Al-ICE type of propellants may deflagate or detonate only under very specific set of parameters, if it succeeds to go to detonation one should expect something between 5-3 km/s VOD

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-11-2015 at 15:41

Quote: Originally posted by dangerous amateur

Yes I know, until it's neutral.

But how many steps does it usually take for you to get it 100% neutral?

I usually wash it with sodium carbonate solution first, then with additional water.
Then I recristallize it from ethanol.

I cannot find any acid detectable with ph strips.

However, would you recristalize a second time?

The following links are related:

ETN crystalization 1

ETN crystalization 2

[Edited on 16-11-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]

underground - 21-11-2015 at 03:37

Are NG and EGDN storage stable for a long time like PETN or RDX ?
Also do NG and EGDN evaporate ?

[Edited on 21-11-2015 by underground]

greenlight - 21-11-2015 at 04:26

I think I have heard of people storing pure NG before.
According to COPAE, the inventor of nitroglycerin, Sobrero, stored a sample of nitroglycerin he prepared in 1847 and washed it with bicarb solution and took it to the Nobel factory many years later in 1886.
The pure liquid explosive is never going to be storage and handling stable like PETN and RDX unless you make a dynamite out of it but even then there is the risk of sweating and causing a dangerous to handle product.
In my opinion, you would want to wash it extremely well to make it as free from acid as possible and probably store it in the dark in a cool place. Repeated periodical washings with sodium bicarbonate solution would probably be needed as well. Even better you might be able to store it dissolved in acetone or another solvent that it is miscible with, but I honestly would turn it into dynamite if I wanted to store it and store the sticks.

As for the evaporation question, the high vapour pressure of NG would mean that it does evaporate I am sure.
Correct me anyone if I am wrong.

[Edited on 21-11-2015 by greenlight]

OneEyedPyro - 21-11-2015 at 07:39

EGDN evaporates but not too quickly, not nearly as fast as water anyway.
In my experience NG evaporates very slowly, to the point of being entirely insignificant for just about purpose.

That would suggest vapor pressure and volatility aren't strictly related which goes against everything I've been taught and understand about the subject.

Are you sure it has a high vapor pressure? High in relation to what?

Edit... I couldn't find the vapor pressure of NG but EGDN is only 0.05 mmhg which is much lower than water.

[Edited on 21-11-2015 by OneEyedPyro]

PHILOU Zrealone - 21-11-2015 at 10:25

I have read (info stored in my memory) that a NG sample from one of Sobrero's initial synthesis is stored for more than a century now in Italy.

underground - 21-11-2015 at 15:22

I was wondering if there is any liquid HE that it is not going to evaporate so we can use it for plasticizer

ecos - 21-11-2015 at 17:39

I think it is better to store NG in a bicarbonate solution. this would automatically remove any acid generation.

greenlight - 21-11-2015 at 19:55

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro

EGDN evaporates but not too quickly, not nearly as fast as water anyway.
In my experience NG evaporates very slowly, to the point of being entirely insignificant for just about purpose.

That would suggest vapor pressure and volatility aren't strictly related which goes against everything I've been taught and understand about the subject.

Are you sure it has a high vapor pressure? High in relation to what?

Edit... I couldn't find the vapor pressure of NG but EGDN is only 0.05 mmhg which is much lower than water.

1`[Edited on 21-11-2015 by OneEyedPyro]

Yes, it doesn't make sense. I think that I was wrong and NG is sensitive to initiation because of the vapour pressure in the liquid explosive causing the formation of microscopic bubbles. I do not think that it is a high vapour pressure though.
If it had a high vapour pressure it would evaporate quickly and as someone stated, the evaporation rate of nitroglycerin is barely noticeable.

[Edited on 22-11-2015 by greenlight]

OneEyedPyro - 22-11-2015 at 03:59

Quote: Originally posted by underground

I was wondering if there is any liquid HE that it is not going to evaporate so we can use it for plasticizer

The evaporation rate of NG is entirely insignificant, even EGDN which is noted for being far more volatile than NG is still nearly 100 times less volatile than water, I'd guess NG is several hundred times less volatile than water.

ecos - 22-11-2015 at 04:12

so why we have headache when we synthesis NG ? I think it is faster than water

greenlight - 22-11-2015 at 05:12

Chances are the headache you get from synthesizing nitroglycerin are from accidental skin contact, fumes during the nitration, or washing the glassware afterwards.

[Edited on 22-11-2015 by greenlight]

ecos - 22-11-2015 at 05:16

Quote: Originally posted by greenlight

Chances are the headache you get from synthesizing nitroglycerin are from accidental skin contact, fumes during the nitration, or washing the glassware afterwards.

[Edited on 22-11-2015 by greenlight]

not true , from wiki :

Quote:

Industrial exposure[edit]
Infrequent exposure to high doses of nitroglycerin can cause severe headaches known as "NG head" or "bang head". These headaches can be severe enough to incapacitate some people; however, humans develop a tolerance to and dependence on nitroglycerin after long-term exposure. Withdrawal can (rarely) be fatal;[27] withdrawal symptoms include chest pain and heart problems and if unacceptable may be treated with re-exposure to nitroglycerin or other suitable organic nitrates.[28]
For workers in nitroglycerin (NTG) manufacturing facilities, the effects of withdrawal sometimes include a "Sunday Heart Attacks" in those experiencing regular nitroglycerin exposure in the workplace, leading to the development of tolerance for the vasodilating effects. Over the weekend, the workers lose the tolerance and, when they are re-exposed on Monday, the drastic vasodilation produces a fast heart rate, dizziness, and a headache, this is referred to as "Monday Disease."[29][30]
People can be exposed to nitroglycerin in the workplace by breathing it in, skin absorption, swallowing it, or eye contact. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has set the legal limit (permissible exposure limit) for nitroglycerin exposure in the workplace as 0.2 ppm (2 mg/m3) skin exposure over an 8-hour workday. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has set a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 0.1 mg/m3 skin exposure over an 8-hour workday. At levels of 75 mg/m3, nitroglycerin is immediately dangerous to life and health.[31]

greenlight - 22-11-2015 at 05:29

It says that "people can be exposed to nitroglycerin in the workplace by breathing it in (fumes during nitration or washing glassware in hot water from steam), skin absorbtion (accidental skin contact), swallowing it or eye contact (slightly more unusual)".
So the nitro headache would be caused during synthesis.
It does have to touch the skin, eyes or be breathed in or ingested.

[Edited on 22-11-2015 by greenlight]

ecos - 22-11-2015 at 05:33

you are correct greenlight

greenlight - 22-11-2015 at 05:36

haha I was wondering what you meant.

underground - 22-11-2015 at 16:48

Does actually exist any liquid HE that is not going to evaporate as i said befor ?

underground - 23-11-2015 at 01:09

What about nitration of glucose

OneEyedPyro - 23-11-2015 at 05:08

After tracking down a vapor pressure of NG and double checking my math I take back what I said.

EGDN is 350 times less volatile than water and NG is 437 times less volatile than water.

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-11-2015 at 10:34

EGDN and NG are not strictly speaking volatile... just a little; otherwise, cold under reduced pressure evapo-condensation would be an option to purify those.

The presence of microbubbles doesn't come from the liquid itself, but from dissolved gases (or volatiles fluids) that expel themselves from the liquid as the temperature increases.
Depending on the affinity of the two compounds for each other, if one is more volatile and has no strong affinity for the major phase, the major phase tends to gather it and to push it out (see lowering of the boiling point).

The main problem with EGDN and NG (and of other nitrous or nitric esters) is that their effect on blood pressure is very strong even at very low doses...so even if the volatility (evaporation or fog dispersion of micro-dropplets) is low the effect is immediate on the human body...

Some liquids HE are absolutely non-volatile (just note that like for unsolubility - nothing is really unsoluble and as a slight solubility; so everything is volatile to some extend ... even cold iron at ambiant T°

).
--> Hint do a search on ionic liquids...

Nitration of glucose...has been discussed a few times on this forum... search with the search engine eventually with the keywords "glucose or suggar nitration, nitrosuggar, nitro-suggar, nitroglucose"

[Edited on 23-11-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]

underground - 23-11-2015 at 12:15

PHILOU Zrealone can you just name some of those absolutely non-volatile HEs ?

[Edited on 23-11-2015 by underground]

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-11-2015 at 15:08

Quote: Originally posted by underground

PHILOU Zrealone can you just name some of those absolutely non-volatile HEs ?

[Edited on 23-11-2015 by underground]

Google Search --> Ionic Liquid Explosives
--> Link
p 17
AMT-ONT
1-AMTN --> US Patent 7,645,883

This is just the spirit of it once you understand what is an ionic liquid, you understand why it will not be volatile!

underground - 24-11-2015 at 06:19

Can nitration of erythritol be done by mixing it with AN and slowly add the H2SO4 ?

ecos - 24-11-2015 at 07:30

Quote: Originally posted by underground

Can nitration of erythritol be done by mixing it with AN and slowly add the H2SO4 ?

it work but avoid it.
you will have a lot of heat generated and you will not be able to control it easily.

H2SO4 + AN => generate heat
Nitric acid + Erythirtol => generate heat.

OneEyedPyro - 24-11-2015 at 07:37

Quote: Originally posted by underground

Can nitration of erythritol be done by mixing it with AN and slowly add the H2SO4 ?

That would make temp control impossible almost regardless of how slowly you do the addition since the acid and AN would liberate lots of heat on contact without much mass to absorb it or rather without an efficient way for that heat to be dispersed throughout the mass.

You can dissolve erythritol in the acid then slowly add AN with stirring being careful to maintain the temperature. This is actually a very good method since it allows you to easily keep the mixture at the desired temp.

[Edited on 24-11-2015 by OneEyedPyro]

underground - 24-11-2015 at 10:36

The dissolved erythritol into acid (sulfuric or nitric acid) can be storage stable over time at room temp ? I am trying of making a semi-automatic setup for nitration.

underground - 24-11-2015 at 10:45

The dissolved erythritol into acid (sulfuric or nitric acid) can be storage stable over time at room temp ? I am trying of making a semi-automatic setup for nitration.

OneEyedPyro - 24-11-2015 at 10:50

Quote: Originally posted by underground

The dissolved erythritol into acid (sulfuric or nitric acid) can be storage stable over time at room temp ? I am trying of making a semi-automatic setup for nitration.

I'm not entirely sure how long the eryrthritol would "survive" in 98% H₂SO₄ maybe someone else knows.

You could however mix erythritol and AN then slowly add that to the acid and get the same results.

Bert - 24-11-2015 at 11:22

It has been tried:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20638

Apparently, not with improvement in yield on this attempt- but you could try and see what further experimentation might show.

Usually, searching with Google will find you information on topics like this more easily than using the site's toy search engine-

This thread came up first thing on searching google with these words:

sciencemadness.org mixed erythritol ammonium nitrate sulfuric acid

[Edited on 24-11-2015 by Bert]

Morgan - 24-11-2015 at 19:42

What would you guess is the volume of this flask?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad2x24S2t1I#t=1m59s

[Edited on 25-11-2015 by Morgan]

OneEyedPyro - 25-11-2015 at 05:38

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan

What would you guess is the volume of this flask?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad2x24S2t1I#t=1m59s

[Edited on 25-11-2015 by Morgan]

2.5 liters would be my guess.

underground - 25-11-2015 at 05:43

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro

Quote: Originally posted by underground

The dissolved erythritol into acid (sulfuric or nitric acid) can be storage stable over time at room temp ? I am trying of making a semi-automatic setup for nitration.

It is much more easier to slowly add the liquid as it can easily be controled for making an automatic nitration system than the solids

Morgan - 25-11-2015 at 16:21

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan

What would you guess is the volume of this flask?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad2x24S2t1I#t=1m59s

[Edited on 25-11-2015 by Morgan]

2.5 liters would be my guess.

Since I was looking at flasks yesterday, I just now saw this Amazon ad on a side screen of my homepage for a 5 liter and this hindrance if you live in Texas. Imagine an Erlenmeyer flask being so watched. What a world we live in today.
"Texas Residents: Under Texas State Law, this product requires a Precursor Chemical/Laboratory App.."

ganger631 - 25-11-2015 at 23:51

A quick question about grease. Is it necessary to apply new grease after each distillation? I bought an one ounce dow cornering grease and i do not plan to buy another for a while.

PHILOU Zrealone - 26-11-2015 at 03:36

Quote: Originally posted by ganger631

A quick question about grease. Is it necessary to apply new grease after each distillation? I bought an one ounce dow cornering grease and i do not plan to buy another for a while.

If you distill (no overheating burning the grease!) the same and if your glass rods are stil air proof (you can see through it transparently) then it is not a problem.

If you do different distillations, then you might get cross contaminations...because some of the distillate may "dissolve" into the grease.

PHILOU Zrealone - 26-11-2015 at 03:46

Quote: Originally posted by underground

The dissolved erythritol into acid (sulfuric or nitric acid) can be storage stable over time at room temp ? I am trying of making a semi-automatic setup for nitration.

Conc H2SO4 tends to dehydrate hydrates of carbon (what erythritol is)...Ever done the suggar cube/conc H2SO4 experiment? You end up with a black carbon dust (charring).

Conc HNO3 tends to oxydise the hydrates of carbon into CO2, H2O and oxalic acid.

--> None is storage stable!

You could do a premixing of NH4NO3/conc H2SO4/conc HNO3; the last conc HNO3 serves as a thinner, to get a less sticky mix...then cool it down in the freezer.
Premix erythritol with cold conc HNO3 prior to use until fully dissolved and allow the previous freezing cold mix containing conc H2SO4 to fall dropwise into your erythritol mix...or inversely.

[Edited on 26-11-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]

underground - 26-11-2015 at 05:13

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Quote: Originally posted by underground

The dissolved erythritol into acid (sulfuric or nitric acid) can be storage stable over time at room temp ? I am trying of making a semi-automatic setup for nitration.

Ok PHILOU Zrealone i understand. Thanks a lot for your help

underground - 26-11-2015 at 08:35

A short question. Can anybody estimate the VoD of the aminoguanidine nitrate ?

ganger631 - 26-11-2015 at 19:32

Another quick one. I dont plan on making any organic peroxide, however will usp grade h2o2 with stabilizer work for general synthesis?

OneEyedPyro - 27-11-2015 at 09:18

Quote: Originally posted by ganger631

Another quick one. I dont plan on making any organic peroxide, however will usp grade h2o2 with stabilizer work for general synthesis?

It will work for TATP but yields will be pretty terrible.
It's not hard to concentrate peroxide and bringing it up to 6 or 9% would give a substantial yeild increase.

ganger631 - 27-11-2015 at 12:18

Oh, i know it's pretty easy to concentrate h2o2, however i guess the inhibitor and stabilizer wont do much. correct?

OneEyedPyro - 27-11-2015 at 13:02

That is correct, the added stabilizers/inhibitors only serve to increase shelf life.
I doubt they have much if any effect other than to act as a slight potential contaminant in most synthesis.

cyanureeves - 27-11-2015 at 13:32

does sulfur dioxide corrode steel?i am trying to drop gold using sodium metabisulfite and dont want to leave the stuff out side in the cold.out of 3.5 grams of gold i only got a pellet that wouldn't even register on a digital micro scale.if i dont get more gold i will have to admit that it might have been fake 10kt.though not likely retirement pins would be fake, my solution is now clear brown instead of green. i got so much Smb in solution it stinks in my garage and i dont want to ruin more tools.. thank you.

ganger631 - 27-11-2015 at 19:49

My nitric acid is all containmented with carbon or some rubbish(it used to be the cap). I might sound dumb, but can i just filter it out using coffee filter or should i just distill it?

underground - 1-12-2015 at 18:08

Will this work ?

Erythritol (150 g; 1.23 mol) was dissolved in 96% sulfuric acid (450 mL; 8.5 mol) at a temperature not exceeding 40 °C, which was ensured by using a cold water bath. The resulting yellowish solution was transferred to a dropping funnel and slowly added to a beaker of rapidly stirred fuming nitric acid (720 mL; 16.8 mol) whilst the temperature increased from 20 to 40 °C. The reaction was only slightly exothermic and cooling was not necessary. The reaction mixture was stirred at 45 °C for a further 30 minutes and then slowly cooled to 10 °C, with continued vigorous stirring. During this time, ETN precipitated out and solidified in granular form. The reaction mixture was then filtered and the filtrate was discarded. The product was transferred from the filter into a beaker containing an aqueous solution of sodium bicarbonate and was stirred for 30 minutes. After further filtration and drying at room temperature, the yield was 347g (94%) of crude erythritol tetranitrate (m.p. 56-58°C).

[Edited on 2-12-2015 by underground]

KesterDraconis - 4-12-2015 at 10:39

I need calcium carbide to create acetylene gas to make silver acetylide double salt. The maximum amount I am thinking I would make (over a period of time) is about 10 grams (in many small batches, not one big batch). How much calcium carbide should I buy to create enough acetylene gas to accomplish this?

Bert - 4-12-2015 at 11:12

Google IS your friend...

Calcium carbide reaction with water:

CaC2 + 2 H2O → C2H2 + Ca(OH)2

So a 1:1 ratio of carbide to gas. But your starting material may not be very pure. Carbide lamp fuel pellets, "Big Bang" cannon ammo, etc. certainly are not.

Assume only 80% purity for such technical grade material, if freshly opened- Then do the stoichiometry. Need help with stoichiometry? We can move this to beginnings.

James Ikanov - 4-12-2015 at 12:14

Quote: Originally posted by underground

the yield was 347g (94%) of crude erythritol tetranitrate (m.p. 56-58°C).

Wooaaahhhh. That's pretty high based on what I've read. Most procedures offer much lower yields from what I've read.

So, unrelated question. Where does the force come from in a flash-powder reaction? I know they don't generate any significant gas volume based on their chemical reaction (at least, not Al+KClO4) but they generate massive heat energy and light, hence the flash in the name.

I've gotten it to do things like totally invert bottle caps and break rocks, so I'm wondering where the heck the energy needed to do that comes from if it's not in the form of a gas?

ecos - 4-12-2015 at 14:35

@James, you need high pressure to break rocks

James Ikanov - 4-12-2015 at 18:12

True, I probably mis-stated that.

It was a large shelf of soft shale that was rather crumbly anyway, but the indentation left in the rock face was much more than I expected and some rather large chunks broke apart very visibly. It was a pretty small amount too.

greenlight - 5-12-2015 at 03:37

I have seen people split stumps with flash powder and correct stemming to enhance effect of course. You should be able to split rocks with flash as black powder was used for this purpose before the invention of high explosives. Although it wouldn't be a very effective method nowadays and I think a lot was required to actually break the rock.

Correct me if I am wrong but depending on the flash powder composition, there must be some amount of gas generated as well as the visible solid byproducts observed when igniting it.

I am sure a large amount of the energy from flash powder would come from a combination of the rapid increase in temperature and the expanding pressure of the solid byproducts of combustion.

Found an equation quickly for low power KNO3 flash and it seems that a bit of nitrogen is released during combustion in gas form along with the solid products:

2 KNO3 + 4 Al + S → K2S + N2 + 2 Al2O3

ecos - 5-12-2015 at 03:58

AN+Al would be better than flash powder to break rocks.
Most of flash powders are sensitive. detonator won't be needed.

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