Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Tetramine copper perchlorate help?

Tetramine copper perchlorate help?

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Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-7-2017 at 10:36

It seems, that during written (from SK) of question suddenly was disconnect internet. I only can confirm Philou of words. Is possible in ammonia water mixed Cu, NH4ClO4 and hexamine. And adding oxygen from air, bubble method or some methode. In 25 Celsia of reaction temperature in basically and instantly arises perchlorate complex between all reagents. Copper - hexamine - perchlorate. After cooling on - 5 C is possible filtering with yield 110% (or more) on inserted of weight of AP. All process is easy, safety, and takes of 2 hours or less.

Of course, that citation:
Maybe that heating nano Cu powder with HMTA and NH4ClO4 will cause an explosion...but I'm not sure the copper is needed at all since HMTA diperchlorate is already an explosive on its own.........

......LL

Copper hexamine perchloraat (CHP)

snooby - 16-3-2019 at 16:20

Well today I made TACP. Nice synthesis! Then I made a double salt with hexamine (4.4 g TACP + 0.3 Hexamine and 0.3 Ammonium perchlorate + 5 ml ammona 25%).

Now I have CHP. It is easy to make, cheap! But what is the best way to make a det out of it?

Copper hexamine perchlorate (CHP)

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-3-2019 at 23:53

CHP require solid (usually metal) cavity for reliable Deflagration - Detonation Transfer (DDT or D2D marked). With inner diameter 4 - 8 mm. Usually 1/4 inch (6,35 mm). Details were described here on S-M.... :cool:

...LL

snooby - 17-3-2019 at 11:07

Okay so i need a core. Is it possible to fill a alu tube with CHP, while there is a thin wooden rot in the middel. At the end i just remove the wooden rod.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-3-2019 at 23:20

Get good tools and equipment. And then you can do the detonators. Your question is: Hey guys. I have pretty car. Perfect quality. But he hasn't a wheels. Is possible use 4 wooden stump with the rot in middle? ...... :cool:

.....LL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tL42YGfLcE

snooby - 21-3-2019 at 11:13

Dets works fine with 6 mm alu tubes. Just make a good core in the middle (just like you would do with bo rockets sometimes.

Never seen an primary thats so easy and fun to make like this. Non toxic as well, not expensive... Just figuring out how to combine this stuff with PETN. The CHP does not seems to be very bristant and you need quite big detonators in order to make them work.

I also tried: nickel- carbohydrazide perchlorate. This stuff is to sensitive to use in my opinion. Skip this one.

I am looking for a synthesis of nickel hexamine perchlorate, but I cannot find it. Anyone can give me a hint? Btw, is it worth the try??

Laboratory of Liptakov - 21-3-2019 at 11:20

[Ni[NH3)6](ClO4)2 is weak. Was tested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIUSOD4zesk

CHP + PETN works 1:1 in solid cavity. For ETN is enough 20% CHP only. Can be 1:1 also. Or mixing ETN 33% + PETN 33% + CHP 33%..... :cool:

[Edited on 21-3-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 21-3-2019 at 13:34

As far as detonator recommendations, I think this CHP detonator looks good if you are willing to find a thick (more dangerous fragments) metal casing:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/files.php?pid=460152&...
One of Dr. Liptakov's designs, which doesn't require a core or any wires running through the packed charge. If you still need electric ignition, you could likely use an electric match in place of the fuse. I haven't tried it, though.

@Laboratory of Liptakov, I noticed a video which you have on your youtube channel of Darian Ballard detonating a plastic drinking straw(?) full of CHP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTYNiabQl8w
I would have thought it needed more confinement than a thin plastic tube could give. Did he prime it with some other primary explosives?

MineMan - 21-3-2019 at 13:42

Quote: Originally posted by snooby

Dets works fine with 6 mm alu tubes. Just make a good core in the middle (just like you would do with bo rockets sometimes.

Never seen an primary thats so easy and fun to make like this. Non toxic as well, not expensive... Just figuring out how to combine this stuff with PETN. The CHP does not seems to be very bristant and you need quite big detonators in order to make them work.

I also tried: nickel- carbohydrazide perchlorate. This stuff is to sensitive to use in my opinion. Skip this one.

I am looking for a synthesis of nickel hexamine perchlorate, but I cannot find it. Anyone can give me a hint? Btw, is it worth the try??

Well I will be damed. A core for DDT. So genius. So obvious. Can you give us more details? How do you press a core? What if you just added NC a solvent and cast it in that shape?

snooby - 21-3-2019 at 14:03

Laboratory of Liptakov :

How do you make a core into ur dets? Just fill a cap and then press something in it? If pressed hard, I find it difficult and dangerous to press something in it.

[Edited on 21-3-2019 by snooby]

prob full det CHP

[Edited on 21-3-2019 by snooby]

CHP filling

Laboratory of Liptakov - 22-3-2019 at 01:45

"Someone" use normal the vice. And press on maximal hand - power - screw - density. About 50 - 100 Kg. With CHP not exist any fear from accident. Over 2000 of pieces. Condition is of course solid cavity. Best and cheapest is normal construction steel tube 8/10 mm.... :cool:

...LL

Snooby, the detonators is necessary always testing perpendicularly against steel. Your results are inconclusive. Best is for beginners steel plate 1 mm. The CHP must deflorating (at 0,5g) steel plate 2 mm of thickness. But perpendicularly.

[Edited on 22-3-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 22-3-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Herr Haber - 22-3-2019 at 06:46

Quote: Originally posted by snooby

Okay so i need a core. Is it possible to fill a alu tube with CHP, while there is a thin wooden rot in the middel. At the end i just remove the wooden rod.

I dont think this is what LL meant but it is a very interesting idea nevertheless.

Pyro tools to make rockets would be perfectly suited to your needs if you could find a size that suits.

snooby - 24-3-2019 at 09:51

Yes i am busy to try A small rocket tool!

But what does the doc then mean? I am confused a litle by the ammount of info

Ow i think the doc use elek ignition in the middle of the charge. Why just not put a fuse in the middle? Bore a hole in the middle of the tube and insert fuse

[Edited on 24-3-2019 by snooby]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 24-3-2019 at 11:36

@snooby ... Detonator is not cannon, with some hole on an side. My patience is on ending..... :mad:

...LL

snooby - 24-3-2019 at 12:38

No okay, but principe seems the same right? Did not want offend u, and im learning a lot from u!

Allright, I did read everything again> somehow I interpretated "solid cavity" as a strong core inside a tube.

I ordered copper tubes from 8 mm. And i ordered safety fuse also (bickford) Since the fuse is 6mm, is it whise to put some CNP around the fuse, so that ignition does take place in the centre?

No end cap requierd? was Thinking of some expoxy harder.....

[Edited on 24-3-2019 by snooby]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 25-3-2019 at 00:27

Around Bickford enough plast electric tape as increase of diameter on 8 mm.

Instead PIB and BP is insert sealed Bickford. Thats all.

MineMan - 25-3-2019 at 18:42

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Around Bickford enough plast electric tape as increase of diameter on 8 mm.

Instead PIB and BP is insert sealed Bickford. Thats all.

A few questions LL

Can the CHP be powdered or does it need to be a specific grain size? Why ETN? CHP is cheaper and easier to make... why not use that for the base?

Herr Haber - 26-3-2019 at 05:11

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Around Bickford enough plast electric tape as increase of diameter on 8 mm.

I'd use masking (painter's) tape inside as it'll provide a much better "grip" when you crimp the casing. Not sure that makes sense to you.
Plastic tape is fine for outside.
Self amalgamating tape sounds like a good idea but it's not.

snooby - 26-3-2019 at 09:03

https://polyestershoppen.nl/lijmen-en-kitten/versachem-magnu...

If want to do it good then put in the fuse and fill the opening with epoxy. U will have one strong end cap.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 26-3-2019 at 09:54

@MineMan Powdered CHP is good for pressing on 50 Kg, as output segment. Usually 0,5 - 1g. For low density (DDT part) is best grain 2x2 mm. Minimal 1x1 mm. And pressing on 1 - 5 Kg. Why invent a wheel? When Nobel patents always use 2x2 or even 2 x 4 mm grain? In NPED type detonators. Is it an base of reliability. Bigger grain = best burning and DDT. Why mixing CHP and ETN? Because ETN is stronger. Every detonator should by have maximal brizantion. But if you are lazy prepare ETN, you can use CHP only.
1 g CHP can detonate any secondary charge. Even almost any AN xx... :cool:

....LL

snooby - 26-3-2019 at 10:21

CHP seems to work great, the only drawback imo is the big det caps, which might produce deadly scrapnell. What do you think about this Liptakov?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 26-3-2019 at 12:17

I think the ride of a young guy on a motorcycle is 100 times more dangerous than a shrapnel from a detonator.... :cool:

....LL

Rocinante - 26-3-2019 at 12:41

A 30 m sphere has a surface area of about 10 000 m2 and the frontal area of a squating person is about 0.5 m2, at 20 dangerous fragments per BC you're looking at 1 in 1000 chance of being hit or about 10 % risk of being hit per 100 detonations.

I doubt that a single motorcycle ride of a young guy has 10 % injury rate.

snooby - 26-3-2019 at 13:48

Dokter, what about the fiberglass crossbow bolts tubes? Would these tubes make a chance.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 26-3-2019 at 23:16

@snooby I see that you are thinking everything possible. Just not it, what works.

Tyneman - 27-3-2019 at 00:43

Hey all.
I've been reading here for a long time. Now I couldn't resist posting.
I made some CHP by first making some TACP by tumbler method. Then converting it to CHP by porridge method. I will be making it directly in the near future, But I wanted to do both preparations separately this time.

I love the stuff. It's non-toxic, environmental friendly and safe to handle. Only downside IMO is that it takes a lot to go DDT. I am used to making a det from a drinking straw with 0,5g PETN and 0,02g PbN3. I upgraded to 4mm Al tubes. But this here is a different story.

I made a det like I normally do. Just used about 0,2g PETN pressed at about 50Kg for the plug. 0,1g CHP pressed at 50Kg and 0,2g CHP @ 1Kg. A bit of fencepost prime and a fuse for ignition. Fuse was rolled thicker with maskingtape and crimped hard af.
That was a big failure. Just a spray from the fuse hole.

Allso made one like LL suggested. 8mm copper, small Al plug, 0,2g PETN @ 50Kg, 0,2g CHP @ 50Kg, 0,3g CHP @ 1Kg. Bickfort fuse rolled thicker with electrical tape. (Goes way faster then masking tape) And crimped it tight.

I believe this one did go DDT.
It just feels like overkill to me to use such a big det. So my question Is: How small a detonator can we (I) make. Smaller ID, less CHP (although its so cheap and safe), and preferably some other material as copper.

https://i.imgur.com/Snbwjdc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/OVq7lLC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KuAPPJt.jpg

Indent on a 4mm thick steel plate. Det placed perpendicular on the surface. No hole, I still believe it went DDT.
https://i.imgur.com/Y8B1dtc.jpg

[Edited on 27-3-2019 by Tyneman]

Herr Haber - 27-3-2019 at 04:51

Quote: Originally posted by snooby

Dokter, what about the fiberglass crossbow bolts tubes? Would these tubes make a chance.

I remember I saw a post on SM years ago where someone wanted to use the aluminium tube of his arrows for the same purpose.
I'd try fiberglass if I were you. Share the results if you do !

My own recommendation is that you go to your nearest model / RC shop.
You'll be amazed how many bars and tubes they usually have. Brass, copper, aluminum of several sizes and thicknesses. You'll leave with what you were looking for and probably more...

CHP

Laboratory of Liptakov - 27-3-2019 at 07:28

CHP works even in diameter 4 mm / 6 mm copper tube, or same diameter steel tube. Pressing is smaller, for example output segment 25 Kg and DDT segment 0,5 Kg. Maybe is possible also use Aluminium thin cavity and over deploy fiberglass tube. Or use fiberglass tube only. Here is example using both copper tubes and Booster 4,5 g. Even this small detonator, works reliable.

Your detonators look horrible. Especially Copper is too short. Will better use as plug some glue on metal. And longer cavity.

[Edited on 27-3-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

However, detonator on the CHP base (system Berta) is especially for construction electric initiation. And not for non quality amateur fuse type detonator.

[Edited on 27-3-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 27-3-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

MineMan - 28-3-2019 at 08:17

That last picture is really intriguing LL. How did you make such amazing sparks!? What does your bridge look like?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 28-3-2019 at 08:33

Last picture is specimen, sample for explanation. Downloaded from stop video. Bridge is from scourer for dishes. Is it flat ferro-steel wire with nickel surface. Very cheap, very available, soldering very easy. From one the scourer you can do 500 - 1000 hot bridges. Available in any shop. And prarctically free... :cool:

...LL

Tyneman - 13-4-2019 at 12:42

Quote:

Your detonators look horrible.

I am sorry LL. I really hope you find these next ones to be more aesthetically pleasing.

Quote:

However, detonator on the CHP base (system Berta) is especially for construction electric initiation.

I did find this picture you posted using Bickfort (Or Monetti)fuse.

That is the construction I used for the detonators. Casing was 6mm ID 8mm OD Al tubing from the hardware store. 8mm Copper just doesn't feel right to me.

I used different bottom sections for each.
1 0,2g PETN @ >50Kg
2 0,3g CHP @ >50Kg
3 0,3g CHP/PETN 60/40 @ >50Kg

4 was as pictured with electric ignition

Since I can not roll out 10+ meter leads without people asking questions I really favor the fuse-type detonators.

Results were satisfying. Dets placed perpendicular on a 4mm steel plate.

left to right 1, 2 and 3

Top to bottom 1, 2 and 3

Showing that CHP/PETN mixed is more powerful compared to the separate powders.

Number 4 was set off not on a plate but burried because I couldn't roll long enough leads. Made a nice little hole, not worth the pic.

All in all I am really starting to like this CHP stuff. Thank you Dr L. for this nice invention.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-4-2019 at 14:31

OK...number 3 is very good result for 4 mm plate and Alu cavity 8/6. Is it full detonation. But PETN is less senzitive on CHP than ETN. Better ratio is 50 CHP/ 50 PETN. For ETN works 25 CHP /75 ETN. Any way, thanks for sharing for others researchers here. Clear pictures. If is were use copper cavity 8/6 at number 3, in plate should by hole 4 mm. If steel tube in a same conditions, so 3 mm hole in 4 steel. Copper tube has always best brizantion. (penetration effect) Is there similar effec as for shaped charges. Shortly, the liquide copper easy penetrate anything because is heavy. Aluminium not.
You can testing under the Heap of sawdust. Without problems with environment, neighbours and similarly. Sawdust has not any influence on results. The Sand yes.... :cool:

...LL

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-4-2019 at 12:59

Here is result for comparation in copper cavity.

MineMan - 16-4-2019 at 23:18

LL. You did two segments of .3g CHP? What grain size? Any way to make this detonator with a single grain size?

CHP

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-4-2019 at 01:37

CHP is firstly the porridge (mixture TACP88+ AP6 +Hex6+ drops NH4OH) and under warm air from hair fan is during 2 minute create wet pieces of size 5 mm approximately. In some bowl, plast or stainless steel. At mixing constantly with spoon. This wet pieces are slightly pressed (same spoon) through sieve 1x1. And fall on innert plate at 50 C. Drying 5 - 10 minute. Not longer! CHP can loss DDT properties. (big loss NH3 from molecule) Ready for filling. Very small grain (10-20% ) is possible separe on fine sieve 0,2 mm.

MineMan - 17-4-2019 at 13:20

Ok. But in the test above you did two segments with the same mass and grain size and pressing pressure?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-4-2019 at 22:01

Exact pressure is not super important. Something between 10 - 30 Kg for an 8 mm cavity. The 500 mg output segment is pressed first. It can be pure ETN or CHP. In the vise. The second segment (of CHP) weight 150 mg is pressed to 30 Kg. Handle estimate pressure. Followed two 400mg CHP segments. Which are pressed around the resistance bridge, around the wires. Pressure 10 Kg. This is followed by refilling the entire tube (usually 45 mm high) with classic gunpowder, which serves as a seal. Or as active seal. Again pressed on 10 kg. Usually 300 mg.

MineMan - 18-4-2019 at 00:33

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Exact pressure is not super important. Something between 10 - 30 Kg for an 8 mm cavity. The 500 mg output segment is pressed first. It can be pure ETN or CHP. In the vise. The second segment (of CHP) weight 150 mg is pressed to 30 Kg. Handle estimate pressure. Followed two 400mg CHP segments. Which are pressed around the resistance bridge, around the wires. Pressure 10 Kg. This is followed by refilling the entire tube (usually 45 mm high) with classic gunpowder, which serves as a seal. Or as active seal. Again pressed on 10 kg. Usually 300 mg.

In one of this thread your picture posted yesterday shows just 3 segments. The output and two .3gram segments.... pressed to 10kg. This is much simple than you mentioned above? Am I mistaken?

For 4mm det you said many moons ago that three segments of .3g, .2g, .2 or .15 works when pressed to different pressures....

I am asking, for 4mm can it be .3g output (50kg), .2g(10kg), .2g(10kg) all 1mm with no fines (below.2mm) and .1g smokeless powder??

[Edited on 18-4-2019 by MineMan]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-4-2019 at 00:54

For cavity inner diameter 4 mm, I recommend output segment 0,2g on 25 Kg, next 0,15g on 5 Kg, next 0,15g on 5 Kg and BP plug
0,1g on 5 Kg. Should by works it. But can be 40 Kg, 10 Kg, 10 Kg, 10 Kg. And it will works also. In solid cavity 1 mm wall. Or wall 0,7 mm also is still good.

Special test for MineMan

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-4-2019 at 02:16

Here is example, system works even in thin brass cavity:

MineMan - 19-4-2019 at 00:56

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Here is example, system works even in thin brass cavity:

Fantastic!! Thank you for doing this test LL!! This confirms my suspicion, CHP is capable of more than we think...

This brass tube, it still looks heavily confined, how thick is it? Any chance this will work in a .5mm thick Al tube... I want to minimize any shrapnel potential, allthough this maybe uneccesary. CHP May have better DDT properties when excess NH4CLO4 is used. For an OB of +15.

Or. If we can find a thick steel sleeve (2mm thick, 2mm orfice) to fit inside an Al tube. CHP should be able to act as a primary with amounts of only 200mg needed. Perhaps. I wonder, CHP mixed with magnesium and PP should DDT instantly. Mg should be safe opposed to Al powder?

CHP

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-4-2019 at 01:34

Really, you have the truth. Excess of NH4ClO4 (in TACP) increase DDT properties. Exist also base mixture, which is only from TACP+AP. Without hexamine. TACP 86% + AP 14%. = 0B + 17,23. And this mixture is pretty reliable. Of course, PP can increase DDT also, similarly as AP. Aluminium or Magnesium also can increase easy DDT. But Al or Mg create with TACP electric cell. Is it not best idea. Generally, the research about properties CHP or TACP + "something" is not on the end. Same situation is abour cavities. All types of cavities are not yet examinated. Is it an large field, big field for next research of DDT and for establishing best mixture TACP + xy.... :cool:

...LL
(in picture is brass diameter 6/5 mm = wall 0,5 mm.)

[Edited on 19-4-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

MineMan - 19-4-2019 at 08:43

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Really, you have the truth. Excess of NH4ClO4 (in TACP) increase DDT properties. Exist also base mixture, which is only from TACP+AP. Without hexamine. TACP 86% + AP 14%. = 0B + 17,23. And this mixture is pretty reliable. Of course, PP can increase DDT also, similarly as AP. Aluminium or Magnesium also can increase easy DDT. But Al or Mg create with TACP electric cell. Is it not best idea. Generally, the research about properties CHP or TACP + "something" is not on the end. Same situation is abour cavities. All types of cavities are not yet examinated. Is it an large field, big field for next research of DDT and for establishing best mixture TACP + xy.... :cool:

...LL
(in picture is brass diameter 6/5 mm = wall 0,5 mm.)

[Edited on 19-4-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

I see. This is fantastic. The progress you have made... and to wonder what we will know next month, next year!

For DDT I firmly believe nitrogen fuels are needed... which is why both hexamine and glycine work. I have had success with creatine in other mixtures also. But, there must exist a powder fuel with higher nitrogen then hexamine... but I have yet to find.... do you know???

I do wonder too what would happen with the addition of a small amount of metal fuel nitride. For example aluminum or magnesium nitride. Making the electric reaction between TACP and that metal inert while giving off N during burning!! And lots of N!

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-4-2019 at 10:19

Great the Idea, create TACP replete solution and use different metal of electrodes...Maybe Mad Idea..... :cool:

...LL

MineMan - 21-4-2019 at 11:49

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Great the Idea, create TACP replete solution and use different metal of electrodes...Maybe Mad Idea..... :cool:

...LL

Do you mean the metal nitrites? Idk if it would work. We need a PHILOU to tell us.... I don’t even know if metal nitrides burn well since nitrogen does have some electro negativity.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 21-4-2019 at 22:30

Yes, Philou....He has some chemical holiday of what? ......

Philou, please, early we will do it electrolysis of TACP......How electrodes use? What will happen?....

MineMan - 22-4-2019 at 20:56

LL. Titanium nitride is the only nitride I can find to buy. Titanium nitride oxidizes at 800C.

Do you want to try some LL??

Laboratory of Liptakov - 22-4-2019 at 21:18

I estimate that I will stay with the TACP for exploring conventional /organic fuels.

MineMan - 23-4-2019 at 23:15

One issue I have with TACP is much is still dissolved in the ammonia, even when cooled. I know supercritical CO2 is used for the shock gel process. Could pieces of dry ice (solid CO2) be dropped into the ammonia TACP solution to precipitate TACP???

Laboratory of Liptakov - 27-4-2019 at 05:03

As an attempt is it interesting. Is possible try it. But with classic preparation in closure jar, are yields high always. On insert AP (as strategic compound) for example 10g AP + 2,66 CuO + 30g NH4OH (25%) are yields 11 - 12,5 g TACP. Is not reason use special methodes for extraction from solution. Thats better the mother liquer (residuum from reaction) boil and decompose on AP + CuO. And useing both compound as adding for next basic reaction. Base of best precipitation is of course Amm. water 24 - 26% and cooling on - 10 C. Ammonia water used for start 10% is serious problem, for example. Therefor is best use closure jar, without smell and without evaporate of NH3.

[Edited on 27-4-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Brightthermite - 27-11-2020 at 23:17

I made some TACP the other day using 10g AP, 33g Ammonium Hydroxide, and a bundle of 22 gauge wire as well as a piece of 12 gauge wire. I reacted the mix in a jar with a small hole, on a ball mill for 1 hour. The product I got was a deep blue and performed well.

I tired again using 20g AP, 66g ammonium hydroxide and the same sections of wire. I allowed this to react for 2 hours. This product came out an almost violet purple color, no where close to the deep blue it should be. The color difference can be seen in the smears on white paper.

Aside from the color difference it seems to perform well. My guess is it has copper oxides in it. I think my wire gauge is too small and when left to react longer then I did in my first run, it produced to much oxide. Any input?

Also when converting this to CHP, the AP and hexamine are mixed in under ammonium hydroxide. Would it be possible to use the hydroxide solution left over from filtering the TACP or should fresh hydroxide be used?

[Edited on 29-11-2020 by Brightthermite]

CHP

Laboratory of Liptakov - 29-11-2020 at 02:21

"Also when converting this to CHP, the AP and hexamine are mixed in under ammonium hydroxide. Would it be possible to use the hydroxide solution left over from filtering the TACP or should fresh hydroxide be used?"

Sentence should by : Also when converting this to CHP, the AP and hexamine AND TACP are mixed in under ammonium hydroxide. Would it be possible to use the hydroxide solution left over from filtering the TACP or should fresh hydroxide be used?

Yes. If you are deficient in ammonium water (NH4OH), is possible it to use for mixing to porridge for create CHP. However, a new ammonia water 25% is better. Old water contents impurities. Adding AP ( at create CHP) is changed mixture on positive oxygen balance, which is very important for good properties of final material. CHP66 has OB + 2,44. Hexamine is fuel. Hexamine and AP create sensitive ingredients for easy DDT, but decrease brizancion. Their necessary content is 12%. The concentration NH4OH during the process in Liptakov converter drops to 20 - 12 %. (time, teperature) For create porridge is this water enough, becaouse is used only a few drops. Exact color of dry TACP from converter is not so crucial. Yes, during longer process can arises oxychlorides, which change color on light blue - grey. This is a sign of a lack of NH4CLO4 in the solution. Or low concentrations of NH4OH. Or too much air during process. Copper is still oxidized, but does not react with NH4ClO4. Copper oxychloride, which has a lihgt blue color, is probably formed. The is insoluble in water, or ammonia water. During preparation of CHP, thus adding AP 6% is copper oxychloride transferred and create form him TACP again. Partially, or entire. Sometimes, is final color dry TACP very dark blue, almost black. Black is surplus CuO. Which usually create at deficiency air in converter. However, important is his final properties of CHP, for example in alu foil confinement heating... :cool:

[Edited on 29-11-2020 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Brightthermite - 29-11-2020 at 21:23

Thank you for the information! Answered all my question LL

TACP

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-12-2020 at 07:14

It seems, that 8. October 2020 Scientific work on TACP has been published. Czech Republic, University of Pardubice https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/prep.202000...
Unfortunately, The whole text is charged.
Fortunately for us, we all know minimal 4 years, what he can do TACP.
Is there describe VoD 3230 m/s . At density 0,9g/cm3.
In amateur conditions was reached density 1,91g/cm3 And VoD about 7500 m/s. Detonation pressure 25 GPa... :cool:

(ETN wiki: At cast density 1,7g /cm3 VoD 8030 m/s, detonation pressure 30 GPa.)

B(a)P - 16-12-2020 at 11:44

Here is the full paper.
They don't reference your work LL.

Attachment: TACP.pdf (706kB)
This file has been downloaded 643 times

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-12-2020 at 14:09

Thank you. With the exception of sensitivity, we didn't find out much. Because VoD at a density of 0.9g / cm3 is of course relatively low. Interestingly, the critical diameter is less than 2 mm even at such a low density of 0.9. Of course, TACP can be easily compressed to a density of 1.9 g / cm 3. At such a density, its brisance approaches ETN. There is not a word about that in the document.
Comparisons of sensitivities: Mercury Fulminate has impact energy (for 50% explosions) 0.62 Joules. PETN 3.9 and TACP 2.6. The compressive force for standardized friction is: Mercury fulminate 0.53 Kg, PETN 7.5 Kg,
TACP 9.3 Kg. That friction is good news. TACP is less sensitive to friction than PETN. Thanks Again, B(a)P.... :cool:

----------------------------------------------
I'm not angry that there's not a word about LL research. They are professionals.It is a higher league. We can be glad that we know at least something from professionals on the topic of TACP. Such data is possible use a like relevant values. Sometimes in future.

[Edited on 16-12-2020 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

B(a)P - 16-12-2020 at 18:14

It seems strange to me that they did not explore density vs VoD.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-12-2020 at 07:44

Is it only partially study.

Uriel - 14-5-2021 at 06:42

Dear LL,
I'm really thankful for your job

BUT after a ten of try : 100% fails with TACP and CHP66.
I put this picture for illustration.

I don't intend to push anybody to use dangerous primary like me, but a failed detonator can be really dangerous in some applications.
So, I would like to aware anybody about the risk of fail for the Berta system.
Maybe it is my fault, in drying operation, I puted in a regulated controled plate at 50°C during long time like 2 hours until the cristals are dry and the ammonia smell very low.
But if something sensitive like humidity can make difference between fail and success, it is strongly hazardous...

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-5-2021 at 12:03

Uriel: In your last research you are used a like primary TATP. posted on 21-10-2018 at 13:14. http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10575&...
And you need talking about dangerous about CHP?.....

Next, you can try drying TATP at 50 C during 2 hours.....

Maybe will results better.....

BauArf56 - 15-5-2021 at 04:21

would it be possible to make this by adding flash powder from a firecracker (which usually is al + kclo4) to tetramminecopper? I don't have any pure perchlorate

Uriel - 16-5-2021 at 07:37

@LL
Thank you for your "Argumentum ad hominem"

Maybe you haven't read the picture ? I was speaking of too low sensitivity.
And I mentioned TATP in the same picture doc, but you probably haven't read it ...
The subject was the low sensitivity of TACP/CHP who can lead to fail your detonator system, and that point is dangerous in my view.

@BauArf56
About flash powder, in most countries, flash was banned in firecrakers, usually it is just "slow flash" with KNO3/Al/S.

I've made some try with TACP + Flash 70/30 (KClO4/Dark German) but the TACP was not set off in paper tube, maybe in copper tube it could works, but as far as Al particles could react with TACP (possibly, not a certitude) , I think it is a bad idea, and I won't try.

[Edited on 16-5-2021 by Uriel]

[Edited on 16-5-2021 by Uriel]

Brightthermite - 21-5-2021 at 07:47

Quote: Originally posted by Uriel

@LL
Thank you for your "Argumentum ad hominem"

I encourage to keep trying to get CHP66 to work, once you do you wont go back.

I believe you are making an error somewhere either with manufacture of the CHP or building the detonator itself. It was touch and go for me but once I got it right I have a 100 percent detonation rate with 20 caps. Caps are copper 1/4 inch tubing cut to 2 1/4 inches long and filled with .7 grams of CHP. The CHP does not even need to be pressed if it is the consistency of fine sand.

I live in a humid area and have had no problems with it affecting my product.

Tip I always had poor results when I dried the product over heat, once I just left it to air dry it preformed much better. Are you using a ball mill during the reaction? Also try a smaller tube diameter, I found better results with that.

All this being said I have had similar instances were I was not able to replicate someone's good results (ETN yields over 75 percent) its very frustrating but hopefully you are able to get it to work.

dangerous amateur - 28-5-2021 at 14:43

Have you ever considered the purity of electrical wiring copper?
What kind of contamination can be expected typically?

Quote:

Caps are copper 1/4 inch tubing cut to 2 1/4

Are 1/4 inches the inner or the outer diameter?
How thick was the tube?

And how did you ignite it?

[Edited on 28-5-2021 by dangerous amateur]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 1-6-2021 at 09:15

Basic compound of CHP is tetraamine, which is stable. But slightly wet TACP contain Octo Amine. Is it part molecule of wet tetraamine. Octo Amine has a weak bond. After long drying stays only tetraamine, which has weaker DDT. Even very wet TACP has easy DDT. But very dry TACP not. Hexamine decrease trouble with DDT.
Typical CHP contains 6% hexamine. Is it abbreviation that has been used as a standard designation for several years. For Tetraamine Copper di perchlorate - hexamine clathrate. But more exactly should Octoamine Copper di Perchlorate - hexamine clathrate. Something a like OCPH. Typical mixture CHP is 88% TACP + 6% hexamine + 6% NH4ClO4. Therefore CHP 66.

[Edited on 1-6-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Uriel - 2-6-2021 at 00:40

Thank you Brightthermite,

An error during the fabrication ? Difficult to believe because my TACP is working and CHP66 too but just partial detonation each time in copper tube. But it's violent and total in low powder, unconfined.

The very probable issue is the very dry final powder. As for me a smell of NH3 = danger, I make it dry properly but it seems to decrease a lot the sensitivity...

So if the detonator need to get a powder with an unknown percent of water to make it functioning properly, it is unreachable for a non-laboratory.
And it make it unrealiable.

But many other user get good results ... So...

I've tested a standard bloc of 30mm diameter ID containing 30grams of CHP66 presed at 1.41g/CC +/-0.03 against a 5mm standard steel plate (S235) underground and the result is quite good.
(set off by non-TACP detonator ! haha !)

it seems near 5500~6000m/sec, what do you think ?

MineMan - 2-6-2021 at 04:03

I am surprised it did not punch through.

dangerous amateur - 2-6-2021 at 14:45

Quote:

it seems near 5500~6000m/sec, what do you think ?

2500-3000m/sec

Brightthermite - 5-6-2021 at 15:24

Quote: Originally posted by dangerous amateur

Have you ever considered the purity of electrical wiring copper?
What kind of contamination can be expected typically?

Quote:

Caps are copper 1/4 inch tubing cut to 2 1/4

Are 1/4 inches the inner or the outer diameter?
How thick was the tube?

And how did you ignite it?

[Edited on 28-5-2021 by dangerous amateur]

Maybe 1mm thickness, the outer diameter is 1/4 inch. Just standard 1/4 copper tube you can pick up at Lowes or home depot. I use fuse. Rap about an inch of electrical tape around the fuse to increase the diameter, place in the tube, and crimp one side with plyers.

Brightthermite - 5-6-2021 at 15:31

Quote: Originally posted by Uriel

Thank you Brightthermite,

The very probable issue is the very dry final powder. As for me a smell of NH3 = danger, I make it dry properly but it seems to decrease a lot the sensitivity...

This could be the issue. When allowed to air dry (you can tell its dry bc the product is able to be crushed without caking up) the stuff still reeks of NH3 which should be fine. The container I store it in has a heavy ammonia smell when the lid is removed, not nearly as strong as concentrated ammonia hydroxide but more like heavy duty cleaner.

Maybe when you are drying it over heat you some of the product itself is being destoryed?

Gargamel - 17-7-2021 at 02:45

Quote:

For low density (DDT part) is best grain 2x2 mm. Minimal 1x1 mm. And pressing on 1 - 5 Kg. Why invent a wheel? When Nobel patents always use 2x2 or even 2 x 4 mm grain?

I don't think the exact dimensions are so critical as long as the charge has a lot of voids, like a rocket engine designed to CATO.

Anyway, cant somebody tell me where these figures came from?

US5,385,098 says

Quote:

Granule weight average sizes between 10 and 2000 microns and preferably between 100 and 500 microns are suitable.

That's for PETN of course.

AJKOER - 31-8-2021 at 14:38

I previously cited my weak results on creating a product per the reaction of dilute aqueous tetra-amine-copper hydroxide acting on magnesium nitrate (which seemingly works well forming Mg(OH)2 and a hydrated version of tetra-amine-copper nitrate, TACN).

However, for the record largely aqueous routes are not the only path (or even perhaps the best way) as there are many reports via natural occurring corrosion (galvanic chemistry) of the unwanted creation of related salts of interest in moist conditions. To quote, as an example, this source at https://www.resourcesregulator.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_... :

"TACN is formed when air, moisture, ammonia, copper and electrical currents combine. It is a deep purple, as opposed to the blues and greens of copper nitrates. If copper nitrates are exposed to air, the purple TACN will begin to form underneath. The photos below (Image 1) show TACN formation on a brass locking lever of a cam-lock fitting..."

My take on the associated chemistry, adding warming as likely necessary, a reaction serving as a source of ammonia and H+ :

NH4+ = NH3 + H+

Next, in the presence of copper, ammonia, oxygen and moisture:

2 Cu + 4 NH3 + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH + 4 NH3 + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2

Cu + [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 <---> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

Reference: "Kinetics and Mechanism of Copper Dissolution In Aqueous Ammonia", at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&...

So, I suspect, in the presence of say NH4ClO4, the following last step in the corrosion process:

[Cu(NH3)2]OH + NH4ClO4 -> [Cu(NH3)2]ClO4 + NH3 (g) + H2O (g)

with the possible creation of yet again a problematic energetic dry salt, but this time, as a targeted product.

An interesting important electrochemical point here, use a solid piece (or large pieces) of copper as Cu is the anode (in this anodic corrosion) and the speed of this reaction is accelerated if the relative surface area of the anode (Cu) to the Cathode (O2) is small.

[Edited on 31-8-2021 by AJKOER]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 1-9-2021 at 06:36

But of course it works very well. Use a Cu pan. Put 1 g NH4ClO4 on the pan. Pour 10g NH4OH 25% aq. And stir with a copper spoon. You can get your first TACP in 10 minutes. If you stir for several hours (at 10 - 15 C) you will get almost pure TACP. But it is a very stinking and slow method...

AJKOER - 2-9-2021 at 17:50

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

But of course it works very well. Use a Cu pan. Put 1 g NH4ClO4 on the pan. Pour 10g NH4OH 25% aq. And stir with a copper spoon. You can get your first TACP in 10 minutes. If you stir for several hours (at 10 - 15 C) you will get almost pure TACP. But it is a very stinking and slow method...

What if you employ an inert pan (say glassware) instead and kept the small copper spoon as is and also injected air/O2 via an air pump into the aqueous NH4ClO4 and NH3(aq) ?

Likely faster is my opinion!

The path you suggested was not likely from anyone acquainted with the electrochemical aspects of the reaction. Further, even try employing dilute aqueous ammonia, but with the aeration, you will have to add more during the course of the reaction.

[Edited on 3-9-2021 by AJKOER]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-9-2021 at 23:06

The efficient and simplest way to prepare TACP. Which is made during a 2 hours. (TACN during a 4 hours) Rotaring converter from a glass to cucumbers.

specialactivitieSK - 1-10-2021 at 01:58

I tried to detonate two months old 10g LIPTEX (0,1mm TACP, 9%PIB+Motor Oil, NH4ClO4) with two months old BERTA No. 8. Detonator only on surface, Not inside the LIPTEX. The LIPTEX Dont detonate.

[Edited on 1-10-2021 by specialactivitieSK]

specialactivitieSK - 1-10-2021 at 05:41

How efficient would be using in converter a solution of 25% ammonia(g) in 35% hydrogen peroxide(a)

Nitrosio - 1-10-2021 at 09:39

Sorry...

[Edited on 1-10-2021 by Nitrosio]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-10-2021 at 07:25

Quote: Originally posted by specialactivitieSK

I tried to detonate two months old 10g LIPTEX (0,1mm TACP, 9%PIB+Motor Oil, NH4ClO4) with two months old BERTA No. 8. Detonator only on surface, Not inside the LIPTEX. The LIPTEX Dont detonate.

[Edited on 1-10-2021 by specialactivitieSK]

Berta No.8 is Safety ecologic detonator....

And it's safe just, because it never explodes....

MineMan - 14-10-2021 at 23:32

LL. He didn’t have the det inside the mixture….

specialactivitieSK - 15-10-2021 at 12:01

Partialy detonated 2.5 month old 10 g LIPTEX and Berta No.8. This tíme detonator inside the LIPTEX. I think LIPTEX need CHP.

2021-10-15-21-56-332021-10-15-21-56-33-177.jpg - 663kB

specialactivitieSK - 18-10-2021 at 00:32

Berta No.8 (CHP : CuO + NH4ClO4 + NH4OH 25% + Hexamine)
2 mm Steel.

2021-10-18-10-28-542021-10-18-10-28-54-091.jpg - 697kB

[Edited on 18-10-2021 by specialactivitieSK]

System Berta

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-10-2021 at 03:08

The yours holes are small. It looks like a low density output segment. Output segment 500 mg? It was not pressed in the vice, but only pressed by hand. I guess. It should make a hole with a diameter about 8 mm. With a cavity of 8mm. Perpendicular to the steel sheet 2mm.
Was find one very old photo from testing. Hole is about 8mm maybe 9 mm.

[Edited on 18-10-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

specialactivitieSK - 19-10-2021 at 02:29

750 mg total filling. 250 mg output segment.

[Edited on 19-10-2021 by specialactivitieSK]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-10-2021 at 08:46

Segment only 0,25 g? In this case is result good... :cool:

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