Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Discontinued reagents

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AvBaeyer - 29-8-2014 at 18:44

Just a quick comment on thionyl chloride. Several of my chemist friends out here in the California biotech world at several companies are having to do quite a paperwork shuffle to get ANY quantity of thionyl chloride. Most of this seems to be internal legal stuff of a CYA nature but it still causes slowdowns and hassles.

Dr Bob is quite correct in saying that a small amount of thionyl chloride will last a long time. Moreover, as it ages it really needs to be carefully distilled to get reliable and reproducible results for acid chloride preparation. Oxalyl chloride - DMF is a much better reagent for that purpose.

AvB

tomholm - 29-8-2014 at 21:42

Good discussion. I'm enjoying the comments and learning a lot about some of the quantities that you are looking for. I'll be reviewing the suggested chemicals and seeing what I can get and what I feel comfortable breaking down into smaller quantities. I think over time, we'll get this program refined.

Some additional comments.

Thionyl Chloride - Yes, I can get it, but it requires the end user to complete an intended use form and it must be shipped freight for all quantities, even 1 gram. Freight costs will vary, but I was quoted $100 to ship one small bottle. And keep in mind, I can't spread these charges over multiple purchases. Even if I buy a ton of it and pay freight to have it delivered to me, I then have to pay $100 or more in freight to ship it to each purchasing customer. The other option is to have it dropped shipped directly to the purchasing customer, but then I incur freight for each customer. I don't see any way around it. Hard to justify for small quantity purchases.

Bulk/larger purchases - While I know that if I buy some of these chemicals in larger quantities and break them down into smaller quantities, I could lower the cost and probably increase my margins. However, this works out only if I can more accurately predict the amount that will be sold. For these special order chemicals, they don't have a history that will indicate how much will be sold and I need to consider how much I may get stuck with in inventory. Some of these may not have a long shelf life or may need refrigeration. Thus, it's safer to purchase in quantities that I know can be sold or are pre-sold until I get a better history on demand.

Small quantities and shipping - Generally, the quantity of the chemical (in the levels that we are typically dealing with) does not determine whether it can be shipped via UPS or FedEx. For ground, chemicals that have limits usually have limits of 2.5 liters or more per package. Air shipments have different restrictions and generally smaller quantity limits per package. That said, quantities do play a bigger role in determining whether hazardous shipping charges apply. Many chemicals are considered hazardous, but fall under quantity exceptions that allow them to be shipped without paying the extra hazardous shipping charges ($30). These quantity exceptions are generally in the 1 Liter range. Additionally, these exceptions can differ from shipper to shipper.

Poison Pack Exception - Some hazardous chemicals can be shipped without the hazardous shipping charges if the shipper uses special packaging (poison packs). We charge $17.50 for the poison packs, but it saves on the $30 charge. Again, these exceptions can differ between shippers.

Again, I appreciate these discussions and feel that with a little more practice, it will come together and we'll be able to get you many of the chemicals that you are looking for.

Tom

DieForelle - 30-8-2014 at 04:22

AvBaeyer - California apparently now has an extra layer of regulatory idiocy on top of the ones they already had before. (prior 10 years versus previous to prior 10 years) That is probably what they are experiencing. Something like a 21 day hold on certain chemicals even for institutional buyers? LMAO. As though a rogue PhD at USC who is secretly planning a chemical weapons attack (we know how often THAT happens!) will be deterred by waiting 21 days.

Artemus Gordon - 31-8-2014 at 12:11

Tom Holm,
I just want to add my thanks to you for all your hard work to help amateur chemistry. Virtually all my purchases to date have been from Elemental, and I promise that you will always be my first choice for future purchases.

tomholm - 31-8-2014 at 19:34

Quote: Originally posted by Artemus Gordon  
Tom Holm,
I just want to add my thanks to you for all your hard work to help amateur chemistry. Virtually all my purchases to date have been from Elemental, and I promise that you will always be my first choice for future purchases.


Thanks much for your support. We are continuing to work hard to improve and expand our services. We'll try to do whatever we can to help out.

Tom

Special Order Chemicals

tomholm - 4-9-2014 at 07:56

I am looking to add to the special order chemical list available on Elemental Scientific. The plan is to leave the chemicals that are currently in the "Special Order" category and add a few chemicals to the list every month. I will then place an order at the end of the month for the chemicals that have been ordered.

I will be making adjustments to the special order chemicals available. Some changes will be made on the purchase quantities and some chemicals will be added. There is also a chance that some chemicals will be removed from the list.

Right now I'm looking at possibly adding the following chemicals to the list. Please let me know your thoughts on these and if there are others you'd like me to consider.

Cyanuric Chloride
L-Asparagine
Phosphorus tribromide
1,10-Phenanthroline ferrous sulfate
pentane
N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone
Hydrobromic Acid
Acetophenone
Benzophenone

DJF90 - 4-9-2014 at 08:44

Quote: Originally posted by tomholm  


Cyanuric Chloride
L-Asparagine
Phosphorus tribromide
1,10-Phenanthroline ferrous sulfate
pentane
N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone
Hydrobromic Acid
Acetophenone
Benzophenone



You're willing to offer a Fentanyl precursor..?

Metacelsus - 4-9-2014 at 08:45

I would definitely like some phosphorous tribromide.

Magpie - 4-9-2014 at 08:58

It strikes me as ironic that PBr3 can be purchased/shipped but PCl3 can not. But who knows the mind of the bureaucrat. Mind you I'm not complaining....;)

tomholm - 4-9-2014 at 10:56

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
Quote: Originally posted by tomholm  


Cyanuric Chloride
L-Asparagine
Phosphorus tribromide
1,10-Phenanthroline ferrous sulfate
pentane
N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone
Hydrobromic Acid
Acetophenone
Benzophenone



You're willing to offer a Fentanyl precursor..?


Upon further review... I think it's safe to say that N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone will not be offered.

Thanks for the good advice.

Tom

Chemicals Added

tomholm - 5-9-2014 at 12:42

Hi All,

I just updated the Special Order chemical list on the Elemental website: www.elementalscientific.net. Please let me know if you like what you see (or if you don't). You can start placing orders at any time prior to September 28th.

If you haven't received your order from last month it's because I am still waiting for a couple of chemicals to arrive. I expect those early next week. I will ship your order once I receive the remaining chemicals and am able to fulfill your order completely. Thanks for your patience.

Tom

Metacelsus - 8-9-2014 at 13:12

I have just received my order. Everything fulfills my expectations.

Discontinued Reagents

tomholm - 8-9-2014 at 19:01

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  
I have just received my order. Everything fulfills my expectations.


Good to know that it all worked out. Thanks.

FYI to others - I have received all of the "Special Order" chemicals except for the Aluminum Chloride, Anhydrous. I learned today that that is projected to ship from the supplier the week of Sep 22. As such, I will probably just go ahead and ship what I can now and ship the Aluminum Chloride at the end of the month, after I get it. Sorry for any inconvenience, but I'm guessing we may run into a little more of this than usual since these are typically, less popular chemicals and not always stocked.

zenosx - 10-9-2014 at 17:35

I like the idea of collaborative efforts to obtain hard to get reagents. I personally live in the Oak Ridge ORNL area of East TN. If there are any chemists that can make use of my lab (and are reputable people, I would check backgrounds as I would expect you to do of me), I would be more than happy to accommodate them. Obviously illegal drug material is an absolute no-no, but anything else is fine by me. The only thing I lack in my lab right now is a fume hood and a microscope and I am working on both now.

If you live in this area and want to collaborate U2U me.

Special Order Deadline Sep. 28

tomholm - 23-9-2014 at 05:39

Hi All,

Just a reminder - the cutoff for this month's special chemical order is this Sunday, the 28th.. Please place your order before that date!

Also, an update for those still waiting for last month's order. The hold up has been the Aluminum Chloride Anhydrous. The latest estimated ship date from my supplier is 9-26. I'll get that out as soon as I get it in. [FYI, I also ordered a couple extra, so if you didn't order Aluminum Chloride Anhydrous last month and would like some, I suggest you order quickly and I should be able to fill your order quickly, using the extra from last month's order.]

Tom

N,N-Diisopropylethylamine, Hunig's base

tomholm - 24-9-2014 at 18:37

FYI. I've added a new, special order chemical:

N,N-Diisopropylethylamine, Hunig's base 98+%, 100g (CHSO22-100).

Tom

Special Orders Due Today

tomholm - 28-9-2014 at 12:59

Hi All,

Please remember to get your chemical order in today!

Also, for those still waiting on the aluminum chloride from last month's order - that was scheduled to ship to me on Friday. I will check to see if that was the case. Hopefully, we'll get all of those orders completed completed this week.


Thx.

Tom

careysub - 30-9-2014 at 06:25

Tom:

A couple of questions (inquiring minds...):

Is the price list of the supplier(s?) you order from on-line?

If so, it would be possible to do preliminary investigation of whether something is available at a plausible price/quantity without bothering you (acknowledging that your pricing will obviously be higher, and you may have other restrictions that come into play).

Also, since PCl3 cannot be shipped by regular means does this apply to other phosphorus chlorides (PCl5, POCl3) as I imagine it does?

chemrox - 30-9-2014 at 08:58

"

Upon further review... I think it's safe to say that N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone will not be offered.

Thanks for the good advice."
The nannies strike again! What a wimpy world..

tomholm - 30-9-2014 at 20:23

Quote: Originally posted by careysub  
Tom:

A couple of questions (inquiring minds...):

Is the price list of the supplier(s?) you order from on-line?

If so, it would be possible to do preliminary investigation of whether something is available at a plausible price/quantity without bothering you (acknowledging that your pricing will obviously be higher, and you may have other restrictions that come into play).

Also, since PCl3 cannot be shipped by regular means does this apply to other phosphorus chlorides (PCl5, POCl3) as I imagine it does?


As you might imagine, many/most of these "special order" chemicals are not widely available and are only available from the major chemical companies, e.g., VWR, Fisher, Sigma, Spectrum. I check these, as well as some of my other suppliers to see what is available and what the cost might be. Some of these display prices online only if you have an account. While I check multiple sources, in the end, I need to figure in shipping and hazardous charges into the equation to determine where to purchase from. It typically does not pay to spread the order around to multiple suppliers because of the shipping and hazardous costs. So often, it boils down to, "Where can I get all of the chemicals for the month's order at a reasonable cost?" This eliminates some of the flexibility I might otherwise have when ordering larger quantities of chemicals that I'm going to keep in stock.

I also try to take into account whether the chemical is something that we feel comfortable decanting from larger quantities down to smaller quantities and how many orders of a certain chemical I expect to get. On top of that, I need to be able to ship the chemical, knowing that freight is not an option. Unfortunately, it's not always a straight-forward process.

From what I can tell, Phosphorus Trichloride (PCl3) and Phosphoryl chloride (Phosphorus oxychloride, POCl3) cannot be shipped by Fedex or UPS. However, Phosphorus Pentachloride (PCl5) can be shipped with a Hazardous Shipping charge. Not sure if that makes sense, but that is the way I see it.

Tom


Magpie - 30-9-2014 at 20:35

TomHolm,

Do you have an experienced chemist on staff that can advise you about decanting or otherwise subdividing received chemicals to smaller bottles? Or do you use a consultant for this advice?

The reason I'm asking is that some chemicals may require an inert and/or dry atmosphere so as not to degrade the reagent. An example might be the subdivision of aluminum trichloride (anhydrous), AlCl3.

tomholm - 1-10-2014 at 05:42

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
TomHolm,

Do you have an experienced chemist on staff that can advise you about decanting or otherwise subdividing received chemicals to smaller bottles? Or do you use a consultant for this advice?

The reason I'm asking is that some chemicals may require an inert and/or dry atmosphere so as not to degrade the reagent. An example might be the subdivision of aluminum trichloride (anhydrous), AlCl3.


Good Question. This gives me an opportunity to talk about the qualifications of my staff.

My in-house chemist has a chemistry degree and 22 years as the chemistry stockroom manager at a local university.

My sales manager has a BA in Chemistry.

My lead equipment service technician has over 30 years of experience calibrating and repairing lab equipment.

We also have a in-house consultant who has a PhD in agronomy and is a highly recognized process authority for the food and drug industry.

I have a degrees physics, math and law.

So, yes, we do have some expertise and try not to do things that are not safe or would impair the quality of the product. We do our best, but are not experts in everything or every chemical.

If you have questions concerning any of these areas, don't hesitate to ask. We may be able to help.

Thx.

Tom

Dan Vizine - 2-10-2014 at 12:00

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  
Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  

If the customers agree to waivers, pay dues, and are accepted into "the society" by application only, the only real risk is if a shipment somehow breaks open or is inspected, the odds of which during a domestic shipment are basically nothing.



That's what I thought too. Maybe I just got unlucky, but when I got some used glassware, the package was inspected even though it was domestic in the US. Three beakers were shattered from being dropped, I assume the inspector did it, because they were extremely padded in the middle of the box.


I don't know if this will be useful to others or not. When I was making/selling metal X last year, and let's just say, for the sake of argument, that I thought my potential shipping method was safe, foolproof even, I may have spoken to a friend at UPS to assess the risks. He probably would have said that UPS (Fedex, too) requires a court order to inspect (even if only by X-rays) your boxes' contents if it presents no red flags, like it's leaking liquid, attracting paper clips or setting off radiation detectors. No such restriction exists for the USPS, who can inspect as they see fit.

I like UPS and give them all my business.

A hypothetical shipping method:
1.jpg - 102kB

Why it seems safe: If whatever hell it would take to rupture the container is already going on, nobody will even notice the insignificant "poof" the ampoule can make. When the shipping container can take anything that its contents or the world throws at it, is there really a risk?

[Edited on 2-10-2014 by Dan Vizine]

Loptr - 4-10-2014 at 15:32

Quote: Originally posted by Dan Vizine  
Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  
Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  

If the customers agree to waivers, pay dues, and are accepted into "the society" by application only, the only real risk is if a shipment somehow breaks open or is inspected, the odds of which during a domestic shipment are basically nothing.



That's what I thought too. Maybe I just got unlucky, but when I got some used glassware, the package was inspected even though it was domestic in the US. Three beakers were shattered from being dropped, I assume the inspector did it, because they were extremely padded in the middle of the box.


I don't know if this will be useful to others or not. When I was making/selling metal X last year, and let's just say, for the sake of argument, that I thought my potential shipping method was safe, foolproof even, I may have spoken to a friend at UPS to assess the risks. He probably would have said that UPS (Fedex, too) requires a court order to inspect (even if only by X-rays) your boxes' contents if it presents no red flags, like it's leaking liquid, attracting paper clips or setting off radiation detectors. No such restriction exists for the USPS, who can inspect as they see fit.

I like UPS and give them all my business.

A hypothetical shipping method:


Why it seems safe: If whatever hell it would take to rupture the container is already going on, nobody will even notice the insignificant "poof" the ampoule can make. When the shipping container can take anything that its contents or the world throws at it, is there really a risk?

[Edited on 2-10-2014 by Dan Vizine]


If I received something like that in the mail, I would be afraid to open it.

Praxichys - 6-10-2015 at 09:37

More depressing news:

In my area, The Home Depot has discontinued the 31.45% HCl for some "Klean-Strip Muriatic acid" which claims to have "90% lower fumes than standard muriatic acid." The MSDS gives an ambiguous <25% HCl. I'm guessing it's probably azeotropic ~20%. It's also $1.50 more expensive for the gallon!

Luckily, ACE hardware still has the gallons of 31.45% for $5.99. I also happened upon 5lbs of potassium permanganate at ACE for $36, another product Home Depot discontinued in my area. Also, Home Depot no longer sells any ammonia that doesn't have soap, but ACE sells 10% aqueous, no adulterants. This is in addition to their recent cut on toluene, MEK, and nitrate stump removers, all of which ACE still stocks. Seriously, Home Depot sucks. I doubt I'll go there anymore.

careysub - 6-10-2015 at 10:28

Try independent pool and spa dealers for 34% HCl, persulfates, and 30% H2O2.

If there people have water wells in your area, look for well suppliers for KMnO4 which is widely used to remove iron from water. I doubt this is going away any time soon, since existing wells are dependent on it.

(I have acquired all of same recently as I suggest, and this is in California.)

Persulfate oxygen shock treatments have disappeared from Lowes (which had a selection of them less than a year ago), Home Depot, and even Ace. In all three places they have been replaced by a Clorox chlorine-only product line.

violet sin - 6-10-2015 at 12:02

I checked less than 2 months ago, and my ace store, in california, still had persulfate. the stuff is expensive and 50% purity if I remember correctly. I did just pass up a bottle of K-persulfate as a photographic supply store went out of business though. so maybe look there. it was Kodak brand :)
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