Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Please do not "play" with Organic Peroxides.

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Tdep - 23-10-2015 at 01:38

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  

The sulfur nitride is interesting indeed, it is one of these energetic compounds that has been mentioned many times, but for some reason I've never read any actual hands on experiences about this compound in energetics related fora, perhaps since it requires disulfur dichloride (a rather high profile chemical to have at home) and a good lab setup.

I have tried making S4N4 at home quite a bit and I must say it better be a bloody good explosive to be enough encouragement to someone to deal with sulfur chlorides. My thoughts are it's not worth it (but probably i'm just bitter that my experiments to make it never worked)

Colleen Ortiz - 17-3-2022 at 06:34

Every organic or inorganic compound must be handled delicately: https://mytutorsource.qa/blog/the-use-of-organic-and-inorgan...
Combustible materials polluted with the majority of organic peroxides can rapidly catch fire and burn quite hotly (i.e., deflagrate). This indicates that the burn rate is extremely quick, ranging from 1 m/ sec to hundreds of m/ sec. Also, when pressure rises, the rate of combustion increases and the combustion (or reaction) zone can travel faster than the speed of sound through air or a gaseous medium. In a solid medium, however, the speed of combustion does not surpass the speed of sound.
Organic peroxides should be kept isolated from processing and handling areas. Keep them away from incompatible materials such as strong acids and bases, oxidizing chemicals, flammable or combustible liquids, and oxidizing materials (often called reducing materials or agents).
For more information on what materials are incompatible with a certain organic peroxide, consult the MSDS's reactivity data and storage requirements sections. Construct storage facilities with noncombustible materials that are suitable with organic peroxides for walls, flooring, shelves, and fittings. Make sure the flooring is impervious to the organic peroxides in the storage. Chemicals should not be able to lodge in crevices on the floor if they are spilled.

Alkoholvergiftung - 17-3-2022 at 07:02

to Nitro-genes

Sulfurnitid was somewhat used with PbO2 in primary caps for ammo. For blastigcaps it wasnt reliable. they saw sometimes clouds of sulfur forming and no detonation.

[Edited on 17-3-2022 by Alkoholvergiftung]

ManyInterests - 31-3-2022 at 10:00

That's some good information on organic peroxides, Colleen. But I just wanted to say that I have zero trust in any organic peroxide. Whether it is TATP, HMTD, MEKP, or whatever. Not even once, not even as a simple 'experiment'. I spent a lot of time and money for equipment and practice in order to produce the safest primaries that any amateur can make. I made NHN/Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate, which is both very powerful and very safe to use. I made a few blasting caps that went off brilliantly with them with zero chance of an accidental detonation from handling, loading, or pressing.

It's also why I want to make CHP and LL8. Both of those are also extremely safe to work with, will store well for a good long time, AND are very powerful.

The only sensitive primary I want to make is DDNP. Which is sensitive, but not some crazy dangerous sensitive like peroxides.

B(a)P - 31-3-2022 at 14:33

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests  
That's some good information on organic peroxides, Colleen. But I just wanted to say that I have zero trust in any organic peroxide. Whether it is TATP, HMTD, MEKP, or whatever. Not even once, not even as a simple 'experiment'. I spent a lot of time and money for equipment and practice in order to produce the safest primaries that any amateur can make. I made NHN/Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate, which is both very powerful and very safe to use. I made a few blasting caps that went off brilliantly with them with zero chance of an accidental detonation from handling, loading, or pressing.

It's also why I want to make CHP and LL8. Both of those are also extremely safe to work with, will store well for a good long time, AND are very powerful.

The only sensitive primary I want to make is DDNP. Which is sensitive, but not some crazy dangerous sensitive like peroxides.


Unless you have sophisticated equipment I think you would find it hard to pick the difference in sensitivity between DDNP and HMTD in the home lab. I am not advocating the use of peroxides, but their dangers in comparison to other primary explosives is generally overstated. If they are carefully made at low temperatures with high purity reagents and not stored, they are no different to other sensitive primaries eg LA, MF, SF and DDNP. Peroxides have a bad name because they are used by terrorist organisations and kids as their precursors are easily obtained and sophisticated equipment and or procedures are not required. If DDNP could be made as easily as the usual peroxide substances it would likely have an equally bad name IMHO.

ManyInterests - 31-3-2022 at 18:51

Quote:
Unless you have sophisticated equipment I think you would find it hard to pick the difference in sensitivity between DDNP and HMTD in the home lab.


DDNP is that sensitive? I think I might reconsider making it then. I'll stick with NHN, CHP, and LL8.

B(a)P - 31-3-2022 at 19:06

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests  
Quote:
Unless you have sophisticated equipment I think you would find it hard to pick the difference in sensitivity between DDNP and HMTD in the home lab.


DDNP is that sensitive? I think I might reconsider making it then. I'll stick with NHN, CHP, and LL8.


I should say that you could likely distinguish flame sensitivity between DDNP and HMTD. HMTD is noticeably more sensitive to flame due to its volatility.

Herr Haber - 31-3-2022 at 20:10

The issue with organic peroxides is that they are easily made into huge quantities and most people will not think about the need for a safer secondary.
A det cap blowing up for no reason is bad enough. Tens of grams will at minimum result in material damage and attract attention.
Other than research I really dont see why someone with a minimum knowledge in chemistry would synthesize them.

[Edited on 1-4-2022 by Herr Haber]

B(a)P - 31-3-2022 at 20:31

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
The issue with organic peroxides is that they are easily made into huge quantities and most people will not think about the need for a safer secondary.
A det cap blowing up for no reason is bad enough. Tens of grams will at minimum result in material damage and attract attention.
Other than research I really dont see why someone with a minimum knowledge in chemistry would synthesize them.

[Edited on 1-4-2022 by Herr Haber]


As I said, I certainly was not promoting the use of peroxides. My point was that they are not substantially more dangerous than other primaries as is commonly stated.

ManyInterests - 31-3-2022 at 20:34

Quote:

The issue with organic peroxides is that they are easily made into huge quantities and most people will not think about the need for a safer secondary.
A det cap blowing up for no reason is bad enough. Tens of grams will at minimum result in material damage and attract attention.
Other than research I really dont see why someone with a minimum knowledge in chemistry would synthesize them.


Yeah. The other problem is that they can't be stored for any period of time. If I made some organic peroxide and something happened to my plans to go to a remote part of the woods to set them of then... well, I'm in big trouble.

I made caps with NHN and ETN, though either due to some impurity in one of the material, the ETN appeared to degrade considerably. But despite that, there was zero chance of them blowing up for no reason.

But I did some thinking about DDNP. I spoke with pb(n3)2 (the chemistry youtuber) and he did mention para-DDNP being much better, and that when it is moistened with a bit of methanol it is much less friction sensitive and can be loaded and pressed into a cap (very gently of course) and left to dry out before a fuse/electric match is inserted and the cap is sealed with epoxy or something. I will need to investigate it further.

Also my setup isn't basic. I have a rather respectable amount of lab equipment to use. Or maybe it isn't basic in my mind. I don't know.

MineMan - 1-4-2022 at 02:45

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests  
Quote:

The issue with organic peroxides is that they are easily made into huge quantities and most people will not think about the need for a safer secondary.
A det cap blowing up for no reason is bad enough. Tens of grams will at minimum result in material damage and attract attention.
Other than research I really dont see why someone with a minimum knowledge in chemistry would synthesize them.


Yeah. The other problem is that they can't be stored for any period of time. If I made some organic peroxide and something happened to my plans to go to a remote part of the woods to set them of then... well, I'm in big trouble.

I made caps with NHN and ETN, though either due to some impurity in one of the material, the ETN appeared to degrade considerably. But despite that, there was zero chance of them blowing up for no reason.

But I did some thinking about DDNP. I spoke with pb(n3)2 (the chemistry youtuber) and he did mention para-DDNP being much better, and that when it is moistened with a bit of methanol it is much less friction sensitive and can be loaded and pressed into a cap (very gently of course) and left to dry out before a fuse/electric match is inserted and the cap is sealed with epoxy or something. I will need to investigate it further.

Also my setup isn't basic. I have a rather respectable amount of lab equipment to use. Or maybe it isn't basic in my mind. I don't know.


Great tip on the loading with methanol… but there are better primaries. Ones that are nearly impossible to set off on steel to steel friction. Also more forgiving in they will not detonate in the open but will confined in mg quantities.

ManyInterests - 1-4-2022 at 04:47

Quote:
Great tip on the loading with methanol… but there are better primaries. Ones that are nearly impossible to set off on steel to steel friction. Also more forgiving in they will not detonate in the open but will confined in mg quantities.


Indeed. That's why I intend (or intended, I am not sure right now) to make Para-DDNP (not ortho, which is more sensitive) out of curiosity since it is technically a 'classic', but NHN/CHP/LL8 will be the stuff I make on the regular if I need to set off my oversized firecrackers.

Also you must remember that I won't be using steel or metal caps for a while. I am still using semi-transparent plastic pen bodies. Also when I press it is with a wooden dowel. The reason is not just because they're easier to get than metal tubes (the bic round stick is the perfect size for a detonator and is very close to the dimensions of commercial detonators), but also I do want to make sure there is no degradation of my material, so when I load the stuff I want to observe for a while to make everything stays OK in there. I can't very well do that with an opaque metal cap.

MineMan - 1-4-2022 at 05:28

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests  
Quote:
Great tip on the loading with methanol… but there are better primaries. Ones that are nearly impossible to set off on steel to steel friction. Also more forgiving in they will not detonate in the open but will confined in mg quantities.


Indeed. That's why I intend (or intended, I am not sure right now) to make Para-DDNP (not ortho, which is more sensitive) out of curiosity since it is technically a 'classic', but NHN/CHP/LL8 will be the stuff I make on the regular if I need to set off my oversized firecrackers.

Also you must remember that I won't be using steel or metal caps for a while. I am still using semi-transparent plastic pen bodies. Also when I press it is with a wooden dowel. The reason is not just because they're easier to get than metal tubes (the bic round stick is the perfect size for a detonator and is very close to the dimensions of commercial detonators), but also I do want to make sure there is no degradation of my material, so when I load the stuff I want to observe for a while to make everything stays OK in there. I can't very well do that with an opaque metal cap.


I never understood the DDNP love. Maybe I am missing something.

ManyInterests - 1-4-2022 at 09:01

Quote:
I never understood the DDNP love. Maybe I am missing something.


My love or in general (there is a sticky thread for it on this forum after all). I don't really have a love for it. Just a mild curiosity.

But if I have to speculate it is probably because of all the primaries used commercially it is one of the easier to make, and in all the past energetics guides published on the internet it is often listed as the 'best' of the bunch they have. Which isn't saying much since those guides are often packed with organic peroxides and very dangerous secondaries like methyl nitrate and other such stuff (I'm looking at the improvised munitions handbook here).

If they knew about CHP in the 70s and 80s they would have probably listed that as the go-to primary instead of HMTD.

MineMan - 2-4-2022 at 02:17

It’s not the best. It’s a 2nd gen primary. CHP is not a primary, it’s a DDT secondary.

Several options, I wouldn’t even look at DDNP.

ManyInterests - 8-4-2022 at 21:22

And CHP is also flame sensitive, which makes it very easy to use.

You know what. I keep flipflopping in my mind as to whether or not to try to make DDNP. I figure this is maybe my brain's way of telling me not to try it...

Microtek - 8-4-2022 at 23:45

There's a lot of interesting chemistry in making DDNP. Diazotisation is a very valuable synthetic method that can be used to make a lot of different compounds. So if your interest is not solely the best primary, but also some of the chemistry, I would recommend doing it.

Herr Haber - 9-4-2022 at 07:39

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  

I never understood the DDNP love. Maybe I am missing something.


No heavy metals so greener than lead styphnate and serves the same purpose in mixes with other primaries: to increase flame sensitivity.
Also, it's an old compound compared to some others so maybe people and the industry feel safer with it as it is tried and tested.

Those would be my reason atleast. Also, I assume anyone familiar with picric acid would be interested just for the chemistry.
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