Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Azides

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garage chemist - 6-5-2005 at 13:38

Sodium nitrite has appreciable solubility in ethanol. I don't think it would precipitate.
And the washing of the NaN3 with ethanol would remove any nitrite.

I'll do the freebasing again when I have my clean ethanol.
So I should mix all of the NaOH with the HS, and then take up the formed hydrazine hydrate with ethanol?
Or could I add ethanol to the HS and then add the NaOH in two portions, like I've been doing, just with good cooling?
Microtek adds the alcohol from the beginning. I like that method because everything is covered with liquid and the ethanol fumes protect the hydrazine from oxygen to some degree.

Rosco Bodine - 6-5-2005 at 14:50

I have freebased 2 moles of HS at one time in a 1 liter Erlenmeyer , using the
alternating additions method I have described , where first 1 mole HS is converted to a hot liquid solution of the dihydrazine sulfate by portionwise additions of about a quarter
of the NaOH used for the freebasing , the second mole of HS added to the hot liquid
in alternating portions with the second quarter of the NaOH , keeping the mixture very hot and stirrable to the completion of the additions . The second half of the NaOH is then added in portions , likewise maintaining the heat of reaction and even adding some low heating from the stirplate to keep the mixture hot during the final quarter of the freebasing . Stirring is continued and as the cooling mixture thickens and has cooled just sufficiently to prevent flash boiling of the alcohol , the first and largest portion of alcohol is added in a lump to the stirred slurry , stirred for ten minutes and decanted while still very warm . At least two fresh portions of alcohol are added , each being stirred up and decanted , the extracts being combined . The combined extracts are chilled and then the added portion
of NaOH for the formation of the NaN3 is
added as a solid in portions , being dissolved in the combined extracts .

Using methanol this has proven to be an efficient method . However it may be that
a different sequence is better or even essential for avoiding problems using another alcohol . This is known to be so for isopropanol , which is the complication
found to be remedied by microteks method of wetting the HS first with the alcohol . Personally , I don't believe the freebasing proceeds to completion nearly so completely nor rapidly in the nonaqueous condition .

Perhaps it is only a matter of time and the freebasing does go to completion even in alcohol . I have not done any quantitative result comparisons so I can't be certain of which is more efficient . It is just my guess really that the freebasing is better accomplished in the aqueous phase due to the ready solubility of the dihydrazine sulfate intermediate
in the water present , as compared with a poor solubility in alcohol . This would be mitigated by limiting the quantity of alcohol used , so that the " moist alcohol "
provides sufficient water content for the freebasing to proceed at a limited rate , while having too much alcohol initially would quench the freebasing reaction . The disadvantages are perhaps insignificant simply by refining the method , knowing that a particular amount of a particular alcohol establishes a condition favorable to the freebasing , while just any quantity
randomly chosen may give poor results due to the fact that the water content is what enables the reaction to proceed .

Quince - 27-9-2005 at 19:23

Quote:
Originally posted by rogue chemist
Your welcome a_bab.

Sodium azide scans have now been uploaded. Same spot as before


I can't find this anywhere. Looking in the sciencemadness library, the keyword azide is not anywhere on the page.

The_Davster - 27-9-2005 at 19:30

The scans are on the ftp under 'rogue chemist', not in the library.

Hydrazinium Azide

SAM4CH - 12-4-2007 at 00:59

how can I prepare Hydrazinium Azide from hydrazine sulfate or hydrazine hydrate and inorganic azid salt "soium azide"?

Axt - 15-4-2007 at 04:04

Your after US patent #3155456 "Process for Preparing Hydrazinium Azide" Attached, Reflux hydrazine sulphate and sodium azide in n-butanol.

[Edited on 15-4-2007 by Axt]

Attachment: hydrazinium azide.pdf (328kB)
This file has been downloaded 1678 times


anne_atdf - 11-5-2007 at 00:02

hy
i search what is the reaction with oxybis(benzenzsulfonyl azide) (N3-SO2-C6H4)2-O ?? do you know how it can react with H2O, O2 or with thermal decomposition??and what is the condition? i you know tell me please, i'm desperate!!:(

nitro-genes - 26-5-2007 at 21:54

Just out of curiosity, but I've seen several MSD sheets for silver(I)diamine solutions (tollens reagent) mention formation of silver azide on storage. First I thought it was a mistake, and that they meant silver nitride complexes that are generally formed from ammonia and silver(I), though these nitride complexes are dark coloured, usually black compounds while one of the MSDS clearly mentions formation of highly explosive colourless crystals...

Any idea of this is true? I can't really envision how azides would be formed this way. :)

I would be cool though, just heating a silver(I)nitrate solution with excess 30% ammonia, so that the formed silverazide would stay in solution, then distilling off some of the ammonia by heating until clouding can be observed, followed by addition of some acetic acid to provide crystal nuclei (US3943235) to yield one of the most efficient freeflowing primaries in a one pot reaction. Even if the yield woud be terrible (very probable), the silver nitrate could easily be reclaimed from the solution...

Nehhh, just too good to be true...:P

[Edited on by nitro-genes]

The_Davster - 27-5-2007 at 01:06

I keep hearing unsubstantiated claims as well. All regarding hydrolysis of nitrides to azides, however given that there are so many misconceptions, even among those in academia, regarding silver-nitrogen explosives, it is not a surprise.

I had one professor at one point mention that magnesium nitride hydrolyses in water to N3- (which he did not know the name for, oddly), and have heard all manner of claims from professors regarding the old silver ammonia precipitates all sorts of things including silver azide, fulminate, hydrazide(?). I suppose those without direct interest in the chemistry here take what they hear from somewhere incorrectly, and pass it on.

I believe it is too good to be true, but would enjoy being wrong.:P

nitro-genes - 27-5-2007 at 10:29

I doubt the formation of the azide as well, even the colour of the product may be deceptive as I've read that the black colour of the silver nitride/imide complex could also be caused by the presence of elementary silver as well as traces of silver oxide, which would be absent when slowly left to crystallize.

The silverazide supposedly only forms on prolonged storage unlike silver nitride, so one of the things that could explain the formation of azides is oxydation of the silver imide/amide with the excess ammonia and oxygen from the air.

In any case is it likely that the product would be contaminated with substantial amounts of silver nitride rendering it too dangerous to be of any practical use.

crazyboy - 13-2-2008 at 15:55

Does anyone have a synthesis for silver azide by using an aqueous silver nitrate and aqueous sodium azide? I would like as specific instructions as possible not just theoretical formulas. ie temperatures, heating, cooling and mixing if necessary. Thanks in advance.

The_Davster - 13-2-2008 at 19:20

It is a simple metathesis...mix solutions, stir, filter, wash.

If such simple chemistry is unknown to you, it would be inadvisable to start with preparing a compound as sensitive as silver azide.

crazyboy - 13-2-2008 at 21:26

This is not the first energetic compound I have prepared however I like to go into things with full awareness of what to do or what to expect. Not being aware of these things is how accidents happen. and as you mentioned an accident with a compound as sensitive as silver azide would could be the last one you ever make.

The Manufacture of Silver Azide R.D. 1336

Sickman - 13-2-2008 at 23:23

@The_Davster,

You know with all the seemingly millions of "recipes" for the manufacture of organic peroxides floating around on the internet I feel the world is just a little safer every time a good azide synthesis is posted or even just a link to a good azide synthesis.;)

Honestly I'd rather see the supposed newbie, Crazyboy, try his hand at silver azide than to loose a hand with the organic peroxides.

So here you go Crazyboy:

The following link is to a military report on the synthesis of silver azide for use in service detonators by the U.S. Military.
It is dubbed The Manufacture of Silver Azide R.D. 1336. If you right click on the link and select "save target as" you can download and view the pdf file which is about 3.55 Mb. The report is 24 pages in length and describes a three pound batch size which of course you can scale way down to even milligram batches if you want to and should. 20 degrees Celsius is the desired operating temperature during the entire synthesis. Yields are very high according to the report and the resulting silver azide is of a satisfactory density and stability, and initiatory abilities are higher than that of service lead azide, which today is the current king of primary explosives, in my opinion!

A word to the wise: Only make silver azide in manageable amounts. For example half of a gram or less at a time. Wear safety glasses all the time and thick cowhide gloves. Don't put any material of substance, such as glass or metal between you and the primary explosive, unless a strong shield such as a thick peice of plexyglass is used. If you are to load a metallic blasting cap with an explosive, drill a cap sized hole in a thick block of wood, and then press the cap in the block. That way if an accident should occur the block of wood gets hurt and not you!:D

woelen - 13-2-2008 at 23:50

I would say, don't make half a gram, but only make at most 100 mg. You will be surprised how loud a bang such a small quantity can give. An explosion of this quantity inside the house will give you pain on the ears. You then can work at test tube scale, with test tubes wrapped in a towel. If the stuff explodes, then you won't hurt your hand, the towel will be damaged. Do wear safety glasses, even with 100 mg quantities.

The_Davster - 14-2-2008 at 18:14

From the book that started this thread.
(any errors I missed were from the OCR)

Quote:

Silver Azide, AgN3, is a white crystalline solid which is photosensitive and has the property of explosion. The technical product is often gray. The azide is practically insoluble in water and organic solvents. Aqueous ammonia [ l ] or anhydrous hydrogen fluoride [196] dissolve it as a complex; upon evaporation, the azide is recovered unchanged. Colorless needles more than 10 mm long are easily obtained from the ammonia solution [197]. In nitric acid it dissolves with chemical destruction, evolving HN3 gas. On exposure to light, silver azide turns first violet and finally black, as colloidal silver is formed and nitrogen evolves [175,176]. As photographic emulsion, the azide is found to be 200 times less photosensitive than silver bromide, but more easily reducible by developers. The emulsions are not explosive [198]. A suspension of silver azide in boiling water decomposes with a discoloration similar to that of the photodecomposition [176]. When heated dry, the azide turns violet at 1 50'C and melts at 25 1OC to a blackish liquid. Starting at 253'C the melt evolves nitrogen gas at a rate which simulates boiling. The mass then shrinks to a brown solid and finally, at the end of decomposing, appears white. Under the microscope the particles appear as silver metal (21. When heated rapidly, silver azide explodes at 3W°C with high brisance, emitting a green light flash [1,2,176]. A partially (50%) decomposed, gray sample explodes with the same brisance at 305'~ [176]. The degree of decomposition has evidently little influence on the explosive behavior. The same was found for mechanical explosion; white and gray samples are equally highly sensitive to friction and impact
(1991. However, the particle size has a distinct influence on impact sensitivity; coarser samples are more sensitive [l92,200]. Long needles of silver azide frequently explode when broken with a metal wire [197]. The AgN3/N3- half cell assumes a standard potential of +0.384 V at 21 "C; the solubility of silver azide in water was electrochemically determined as 8.4 X g/liter at 18OC [201].
Of historic interest is a reaction in which the azide group was synthesized from hydrazine and nitrite in the presence of silver ions [19,98] (see p. 24). Most commonly, silver azide is prepared by mixing aqueous solutions of hydrazoic acid or sodium azide with silver nitrate. The product is precipitated in fine crystalline form; larger crystallites are obtained from more dilute reagents [200]. One author recommended the use of an excess of sliver nitrate; another believed this would enhance the photodecomposition of the product [202]. Of more significance is the recommendation to make the azide in the dark, or at least under red light, [203.204] and to wash the product completely ion free.

To prepare 3-g batches, a solution of 3.42 g silver nitrate (slight excess) in 100 ml water is placed in a 500-rnl beaker and heated to 60-70'~. The solution is stirred with a rubber-clad glass rod, and a solution of 1.3 g sodium azide in 100 ml water (60-70'~) is added within 3-4 min. The precipitate is stirred until well coagulated and then transferred to a Buchner funnel. To avoid contact with the hard funnel material, both the bottom and walls are covered with filter paper. The product is washed with water until nitrate free, thed h alcohol and ether, followed by drying at 70-90°C.


One should be very carefull, as these compounds can explode under water, so glass stirring rods are a no-no. And as mentioned, use small ammounts.
The above synthesis I believe is tailored to a silver azide product more suited for practical use, wheras if you need only a few mg for demonstration of the explosive effect, simple azide and silver solutions can be mixed without any special procedure. I have done such before without issues.

microcosmicus - 14-2-2008 at 20:09

Could you provide a bibliographic reference (i.e. title and author) for this
500 page tome on azides which you have been referring to as "the book"?
Reading through this thread, I have seen plenty of quotations, but none
of the information which would allow me to track down a copy at a
library near me. :)

[Edited on 14-2-2008 by microcosmicus]

The_Davster - 14-2-2008 at 20:48

Silly me, I cannot believe I never did.
Energetic Materials. Vol. 1. Physics and Chemistry of the Inorganic Azides. Edited by H. D. Fair and R. F. Walker

Engager - 20-2-2008 at 23:08

Hi all, i have some comments related to azides. First off all stay away from HN3, not even it is highly explosive, it is also very volatile and highly toxic. It's fumes can detonate on contact with sharp surfaces and at slight pressure change. Boiling point of HN3 is just above 35C, and if you place it in cold beaker it can condense on side walls forming hazardous concentrated HN3 drops. Never add acids to cold solution of azide!!!

Stay away from copper azide, i know guy who made it and it detonated in his hands while he suddenly broken small crystall, also it can expode underwater if crystalls are big enough. Remember that Co and Ni azides are total suicide, they are extremely sensitive, in dry state whey detonate even then trying to move it with soft brush.

Pb azide can also explode while precipitation from water solution because inner crystalline stresses, always pay attention to make only small crystalline forms and stabilise them with binders such as dextrin.

Azides are very toxic, they disturb redox reactions in organism, destroy erythrocytes in bloodstream and oxidize hemoglobine to methemoglobine. Also be aware that not harm and fatal concentations for HN3 are very close (same way as HCN), and not-fatal doses of HN3 can cause delayed effects. Toxicological action of HN3 and HCN is the same, and toxicity is close to each other. Azides have same action as cyanides because of same toxicity mechanism. Hydrazine is also highly toxic and is nerve system poison, destroys liver and affects high nerve system activity.

All inorganic azides except alkali metall ones are explosive, lithium azide is also explosive. Organic azides containing more then 25% mass azide nitrogen are also highly explosive and should be handled with great care. Some organic azides are good primary explosives, the most famous one is cianuric triazide. Nitrogen rich azides such as tetrazylazide or isocyanogentetrazide are terribly brisant and sensitive.

chemoleo - 21-2-2008 at 17:17

Quote:
Remember that Co and Ni azides are total suicide, they are extremely sensitive, in dry state whey detonate even then trying to move it with soft brush

and
Quote:
All inorganic azides except alkali metall ones are explosive, lithium azide is also explosive.

Could you please reference this.

For cyanuric triazide, look up COPAE, it can be prepared by reacting cyanuric chloride with NaN3.
Cyanuric chloride is in turn prepared by passing chlorine gas through HCN (in Et2O or CHCl3), forming extremely toxic cyanogen chloride ClCN in situ.

[Edited on 22-2-2008 by chemoleo]

quicksilver - 22-2-2008 at 07:22

Does anyone have references for molecular weights in relation to energetic reactivity? Simply put, I see density playing a role with mercury and lead and higher sensitivity with copper and silver but yet there seems exceptions depending on the energetic material, so I want to learn more. I have yet to find anything relevant....

Copper azide is unbelievably sensitive, silver much less so, the phenomenon continues with mercuric and lead azide. Why such a differentiation in sensitivity????

Engager - 22-2-2008 at 07:48

H.D. Fair , R.F. Walker - Physics and chemistry of inorganic azides pages 47,48:



Russian reference L.I. Bagal - Chemistry and technology of primary explosives, page 261:



Translation: Anhydrous cobalt azide (crystalises with one molecule of water) is brownish-red crystalls with melting point 148C (detonation decomposition). Hygroscopic, extremely sensitive to friction (detonates even from friction between lists of paper), extremely sensitive to shock. Thin layer of cobalt azide ignited by hot wire gives detonation velocity 3400 m/sec. Detonation velocity did not changed after neutron bombardment.

Russian 5 volume chemical encyclopedia, Volume 1, page 48:



Translation: Metal azides are crystaline substances (see table above). They are unstable: in many cases friction, impact, heating and light cause explosive decomposition, sometimes explosion can occur than handling wet azide or even in solution. Only azides of alkali metals (except Li) are capable to decompose without explosion.

quicksilver - 23-2-2008 at 07:00

Thank you. I wish there was an English translation of L.I. Bagal. I have seen a lot of Russian material that I would love to read. You're lucky to have those language skills!

math - 8-11-2008 at 18:44

which book was it davster?
chemistry of inorganic azides maybe?

The_Davster - 9-11-2008 at 17:46

Quote:
Originally posted by The_Davster
Energetic Materials. Vol. 1. Physics and Chemistry of the Inorganic Azides. Edited by H. D. Fair and R. F. Walker

sparkgap - 31-12-2008 at 06:50

I was reminded of this thread when I came across the following paper

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Highly Energetic Tetraazidoborate Anion and Boron Triazide Adducts

Wolfgang Fraenk, Tassilo Habereder, Anton Hammerl, Thomas M. Klapötke,* Burkhard Krumm, Peter Mayer, Heinrich Nöth, and Marcus Warchhold
Department of Chemistry, University of Munich, Butenandtstrasse 5-13 (D), D-81377 Munich, Germany

Abstract:

The first crystal structures of the highly energetic tetraazidoborate anion and boron triazide adducts with quinoline and pyrazine as well as of tetramethylpiperidinium azide have been determined. Synthesis procedures and thorough characterization by spectroscopic methods of these hazardous materials are given. Quantum chemical calculations were carried out for B(N<sub>3</sub>;)<sub>4</sub><sup>-</sup>, B(N<sub>3</sub>;)<sub>3</sub>, C<sub>5</sub>H<sub>5</sub>N·B(N<sub>3</sub>;)<sub>3</sub>, (N<sub>3</sub>;)<sub>3</sub>B·NC<sub>4</sub>H<sub>4</sub>N·B(N<sub>3</sub>;)<sub>3</sub>, and the hypothetical C<sub>3</sub>H<sub>3</sub>N<sub>3</sub>·[B(N<sub>3</sub>;)<sub>3</sub>]<sub>3</sub> at HF, MP2, and B3-LYP levels of theory. The structure of tetraazidoborate was optimized to S<sub>4</sub> symmetry and confirmed the results obtained from the X-ray diffraction analysis. The dissociation enthalpies for the pyridine (model for quinoline) as well as for the pyrazine adduct were calculated. For pyridine−boron triazide a value of 10.0 kcal mol<sup>-1</sup> (for pyrazine−bis(boron triazide) an average of 2.35 kcal mol<sup>-1</sup> per BN unit) was obtained.


Source: Inorganic Chemistry, 2001, 40(6), 1334–1340

DOI: 10.1021/ic001119b

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ic001119b

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Enjoy. :D

sparky (~_~)

Attachment: tetrazido.pdf (233kB)
This file has been downloaded 2212 times


Taoiseach - 23-6-2009 at 04:39

Here's something interesting I found in an old chemistry book:

1. If a solution of hydrazine sulfate is added to a cold saturated solution of AgNO2, silver azide is formed immediately as tiny crystal needles.

2. 1.5g hydrazine sulfate is heated with 4ml of HNO3 1.3 (what is this density?) and the gas produced is bubbled
through a solution of AgNO3. Silver azide is formed as a thick white precipate.

Method 1 looks the most interesting. AgNO2 is easy to make from AgNO3 and NaNO2. The problem with using a "cold saturated solution" is that this stuff is hardly soluble in cold water. I dont have solubility data for AgNO2 but I guess it is much more soluble than AgN3. It should then be feasible to add solid AgNO2 to a warmed solution of HS.

Now we all know that silver azide is a pretty useless compound due to its high sensitivity.

In wet state it is said to be managable tough.

AgN3 is pretty insoluble, at 20°C only 0,0007931g dissolve in 100g water.
However, other silver compounds are even less soluble: AgBr (0,00001328g/100g), AgCL (0,0001923g/100g)

This indicates that a simple metathesis reaction should be possible:

NaCl + AgN3 -> NaN3 + AgCl

The difference between solubilities of AgN3 and AgCl is quite low but it could still work. For example, metathesis between Na2CO3 and CaSO4 works too. CaSO4 is 0,223g/100g and CaCO3 0,0006170g/100g so the reaction product is 360 times
less soluble.

AgCl is 4 times less soluble than AgN3.
AgBr is 60 times less soluble than AgN3.

*Maybe* this is enough to drive the reaction in reasonable time.

If a suspension of NaCl and AgN3 was made, one could repeatedly remove the water with NaN3 dissolved to increase
speed of reaction.

Anyways some toughts...

Taoiseach - 23-6-2009 at 05:13

*Update*

The AgN3 -> NaN3 route has been worked out before:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=att...

Couldn't be easier :D Add NaCl solution, wait a few minutes, filter & wash. Evaporate solution to yield pure NaN3.

Now the question is: How good is the yield of the AgNO2+HS synthesis?

chloric1 - 23-6-2009 at 12:19

Quote: Originally posted by Taoiseach  
Here's something interesting I found in an old chemistry book:

1. If a solution of hydrazine sulfate is added to a cold saturated solution of AgNO2, silver azide is formed immediately as tiny crystal needles.

2. 1.5g hydrazine sulfate is heated with 4ml of HNO3 1.3 (what is this density?) and the gas produced is bubbled
through a solution of AgNO3. Silver azide is formed as a thick white precipate.

Method 1 looks the most interesting. AgNO2 is easy to make from AgNO3 and NaNO2. The problem with using a "cold saturated solution" is that this stuff is hardly soluble in cold water. I dont have solubility data for AgNO2 but I guess it is much more soluble than AgN3. It should then be feasible to add solid AgNO2 to a warmed solution of HS.

Now we all know that silver azide is a pretty useless compound due to its high sensitivity.

In wet state it is said to be managable tough.

AgN3 is pretty insoluble, at 20°C only 0,0007931g dissolve in 100g water.
However, other silver compounds are even less soluble: AgBr (0,00001328g/100g), AgCL (0,0001923g/100g)

This indicates that a simple metathesis reaction should be possible:

NaCl + AgN3 -> NaN3 + AgCl

The difference between solubilities of AgN3 and AgCl is quite low but it could still work. For example, metathesis between Na2CO3 and CaSO4 works too. CaSO4 is 0,223g/100g and CaCO3 0,0006170g/100g so the reaction product is 360 times
less soluble.

AgCl is 4 times less soluble than AgN3.
AgBr is 60 times less soluble than AgN3.

*Maybe* this is enough to drive the reaction in reasonable time.

If a suspension of NaCl and AgN3 was made, one could repeatedly remove the water with NaN3 dissolved to increase
speed of reaction.

Anyways some toughts...


I know it cost a little more but I think sodium bromide would work better. Being that silver bromide is so much more insoluble that silver azide. Problem is you cannot heat the solution because appreciable amounts of HN3 would be expelled above 37 degrees C. I am not sure slow evaporation would be much better. It would be better probably take a fairly strong sodium bromide solution and mix with the required amount of silver azide and let them be together a week or so in a closed bottle with frequent stirring. Take a sample of the filtrate, test for azide, then if the reaction is complete, then dump the filtrate into a large excess of water soluble solvent that will not dissolve sodium azide. You could use ethanol, isopropanol, or even better acetone.

Plasmapyrobattics - 23-6-2009 at 12:32

Sodium Azide

Sodium Azide is an important pre-cursor or base material for many Azides. On this thread I could not find any simple and practical synth for Sodium Azide. The following reaction seems relatively straight forward and easy...

Hydrazine Hydrate + Sodium Nitrite (solution) :

H2N-NH3-OH + NaONO --> NaOH + HN3 + 2H2O --> NaN3 + 3H2O

The NaN3 is crystallized by evaporating the H2O.

Correct? Any other ideas?

Taoiseach - 2-7-2009 at 14:36

Semi-safe (only 2 explosions occured during experimentation :D ) method for generating gaseous HN3:

handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD404719

Taoiseach - 2-7-2009 at 14:43

sorry 4 broken link here's the complete one:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD404719&Locatio...

Rosco Bodine - 7-10-2010 at 02:31

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
Browne went on to write many other articles in JACS on the subject of hydrazine and hydrazoic acid over the years.


Attached is some more of the JACS material from early research on azides.

Thanks to franklin for a more legible copy of the original paper attached

Attachment: Chemistry_of_hydronitrides.pdf (1.8MB)
This file has been downloaded 1143 times

[Edited on 7-10-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 17-4-2011 at 08:48

I have been experimenting lately with hydrazine sulfate (HS), and trying to produce sodium azide. I made HS using Mr. A 's method and found it was fairly straight forward. What is causing me a lot of grief is going from HS to NaN3. At first I thought maybe my HS was too impure, but after obtaining a hundred grams of reagent grade HS and having the same problems I now don't think so. I also recrystallized my homemade HS from water after the first freebasing experiment was very sluggish.

As an example, for my last attempt I used 6g of reagent grade HS. I freebased the HS with about 3.8g of NaOH, added in two separate portions. I did get a little whiff of hydrazine (ammonia like smell) during the freebasing which was sort of worrisome. I added only a couple drops of water during the freebasing just to get the reaction between the HS and NaOH going. I did three or four extractions with methyl hydrate (says on bottle 99.9% pure). I next tried to dissolve another 1.9g of NaOH in the extracts. This is where things get screwed up, I couldn't get all the NaOH to dissolve. I had to add more methanol until I had a total volume of about 70mL, and when I was using my homemade HS I had an even harder time getting the last NaOH addition to dissolve.

When I finally did get all the NaOH to dissolve I added the Isopropyl Nitrite. Even after standing for 24 hours (in a little beaker covered with saran wrap) there was no precipitate. I have done about 5 experiments in the last week or so, 3 of which were with reagent grade HS.

I was hoping Rosco or maybe someone else could help me out. I would really like to make this work.

quicksilver - 17-4-2011 at 11:50

I am hoping that Roscoe would tap into this discussion as it has come up before (to an extent), please see:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=253
It IS a very interesting subject. I don't know how long you allowed for the synthesis to stand but I think the time of addition (of NaOH) needs to be lengthy. Please check that thread & compare it to what you were attempting.

Rosco Bodine - 17-4-2011 at 21:20

If hydrazine sulfate was made by Mr. A's improved method, then look no further for "reagent grade" hydrazine sulfate because you made it already. Microtek described a method that would be worth trying. The details have been described and discussed. I honestly don't have time to do the reviewing so folks will just have to read through the threads and dig out the particulars. My time is pretty much tied up with some other business for the next few months so I am just kind of stopping by.

When a known valid method of synthesis can't be reproduced then something is different about the technique, manipulations, or materials being used.

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 18-4-2011 at 17:42

It could just be that your technique does not lend itself well to using small quantities. I am using small quantities because I don't want to waste reagents. I want to be sure I know what I am doing. It is very hard (relatively) to accurately control temperature with small quantities. I don't know the extent of the oxygen absorbing issue with hydrazine, but given the specific area (area to volume ratio) of a small sample being so much larger, the oxygen issue must be a lot bigger problem for the small sample. The small sample has for similar reasons a problem with greater evaporation losses relative to the size of the sample. I am sure I lost a lot of hydrazine hydrate along with the water during some of my freebasing trials. There isn't much water involved with only a few grams of HS.

I found Microtek's method that you posted. I have given it a try, and for smaller quantities I think it is the way to go. I did get a precipitate but it is still slow to form. I have been using small beakers and a glass rod, and covering in between manipulations, hovever there is a lot of time when it is uncovered. Could it be that my hydrazine is just getting oxidized before I get to add the IPN? I am going to get a small erlenmeyer with stopper, and use magnetic stirring this time.

One thing I have learned is when things are done on a different scale, it can change everything. For instance it is common knowledge that just because something works on bench scale, does not necessarily mean that it will work full scale in a plant ( in fact it very often does not).

Thanks for pointing out Microteks method.

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 19-4-2011 at 07:40

This picture shows a very fluffy precipitate of what I hope is NaN3. I left the beaker sit overnight at room temperature after adding the IPN. In the first hour there was a small amount of precipitate, (about 1/4 of what is in the picture). I went to sleep soon after, and awoke to what is in the picture(8 hours later). The beaker is a 100mL beaker, and I started with only 3g of HS.

The reflection makes for a deceiving picture, the beaker only has about a 0.6cm layer of fluff on the bottom, which can be seen from the picture if you look close. I should have tried for a better picture.

I found Microtek's method with isopropyl alcohol to be much easier to make work, at least in small quantities.

Is it normal for the NaN3 to be this fluffy?



Sodium Azide Synth1.JPG - 198kB

[Edited on 19-4-2011 by Hydrazine H2SO4]

Microtek - 19-4-2011 at 09:21

Have you tested the supposed NaN3? It's wonderfully easy to do qualitative tests for primary explosives after all...

IIRC, the precipitated NaN3 was rather fluffy for me as well.

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 19-4-2011 at 13:11

I am already on my way down that road Microtek. I am not near my regular stash of chemicals right now, but I did manage to mooch some silver nitrate from school. I will get back to you shortly with the results.

Here is what the yeild looks like almost dry on a filter paper(hopefully sodium azide). I filtered and then rinsed with a bit more 99% isopropyl alcohol.

Sodium azide yeild.JPG - 248kB

[Edited on 19-4-2011 by Hydrazine H2SO4]

Rosco Bodine - 19-4-2011 at 19:51

Hydrazine is such a powerfully active reducing agent that really anaerobic or manipulation approaching anaerobic technique with regards to atmospheric oxygen is a given requirement. No open containers here, except maybe a minimal exposure to air during a rapid pouring of contents from one vessel to another
would have relatively little loss if there was not a lot of headspace, and you have something of a protective vapor effect provided by fumes of volatile solvent to
help keep oxygen upstream of the emerging solvent vapors. I hope I am making sense in describing the manipulation technique or concept. It isn't a strict anaerobic requirement for larger quantities where some oxidation loss is tolerable....
but very truly as you say scale matters, and where you have a small sample
then a small loss may be most of the sample. And yes the thermodynamic of a chemical reaction is related to scale so what is perfectly optimized for one scale may not work so well on a different scale, and scalability is generally worse for fickle reactions. If you need a kilo see Rosco .....if you need 10 grams see Microtek :D

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 20-4-2011 at 07:29

Sounds like good advice. I am going to get a small erlynmeyer and use magnetic stirring for the free-basing, rather than using a glass stirring rod and having the vessel open much of the time as I have been doing.

My dry yeild in the last picture was about 0.75g of Sodium Azide from 3g of HS.

I made some Silver Azide with it using a procedure posted in this thread somewhere I think. This is abbreviated to just give a basic picture of the process, "3.42 g of AgNO3 is dissolved in 100mL of water, 1.3g of NaN3 is dissolved in 100mL of water in separate beaker, the AgNO3 is heated to 60-70C (I didn't do this), then the NaN3 solution is added slowly with mixing over 3-4 min. The precipatate is filtered and rinsed with water to get rid of all nitrate, then left to dry". The synthesis says that drying can be done between 70-90C (I just left it overnight on a filter paper at room temperature).

My yeild was about 1.55g of AgN3. According to the synthesis and adjusted for my 0.75g NaN3 started with I should have gotten a yeild of about 1.73g, not bad I guess. I tested it, and even a few miligrams makes one hell of a bang. Have a look at the ugly product though. I have never made AgN3 before and didn't realize untill it was to late that there was quite a bit of NaOH with the NaN3. I got a lot of Silver Oxide in my yeild (I think this is what happened). It is a rookie mistake, oh well I will know for next time. The old Silver Nitrate I used had a fair bit of oxide in it already as well. I probable should be recrystallizing my NaN3 before using it in a AgN3 synthesis.

The AgN3 sure works well though, and even though it is an ugly product, it shows that I have made NaN3 although I need some refinements.



AgN3 yeild.JPG - 270kB

Jimbo Jones - 21-4-2011 at 09:29

Your nitrate/azide solutions are very diluted. Hot solutions or slow addition also produce bigger (read more sensitive) crystals. Sometimes detonation accure even in solutions. 10 % sodium azide and 15 % lead or silver nitrate solutions in distilled water are optimum, but I believe there are even better ratios. Don’t use tap water. This will add a lot of crap like lead chloride, sulphate and carbonate. Stir with plastic straw for around 5 minutes, and then filter 3 times with water. The final wash is with acetonе, to help drying process. Ok, the fun part. You will also need some sort of colloid or emulsifying agent such dextrine, PVA, CMC, gelatin, guar gum or glycerin. Because I was out of dextrine I chose to use gelatin. After some beers and thoughts I decide to add 1 % gelatin to the lead nitrate solution. The resulted lead azide has very fine, powder consistency, not so sensitive to friction or strike (metal & metal) and with nice sensitivty to flame. The bad part. I think I add toooo much gelatin. After some resurch I found that the ratios are between 0,2 and 0,5 %. The produced lead azide burns like flash powder (no sharp cracks, a.k.a detonation) with visible black smoke and residue. After the first disapoiment I pressed one cap with lead azide only. Full detonation and shattering on the plastic can used as witness plate. So after all the azide detonate even in heavy gelatinized form.

The azides are very interesting subject so anyone who can put any furder information is wellcome.

P.S.

Stupid me! No more beers, when reading the old lab notes. The 10 and 15 % solutions actually produce the more sensitive form. Well, maybe the gelatin helps after all….


[Edited on 21-4-2011 by Jimbo Jones]

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 22-4-2011 at 09:05

A friend who has a collection of asssorted new and old glassware at his disposal gave me a 100mL erlynmeyer with ground glass joint and glass stopper.

I ran another freebasing experiment with Hydrazine Sulfate made by Mr. A's method. The freebasing was performed again with Microtek's method. I started with 6.5g of HS. I added 7.5 mL of isopropyl alcohol, then 2g of NaOH and stoppered the flask. When that had reacted I added an additional 2.2g of NaOH. I let it react for over an hour to be sure it had lots of time to react (it was stoppered the whole time). In the end I had dry white power (Sodium Sulfate), and a nice clear alcoholic solution of Hydrazine Hydrate. I did 4 extractions, starting with about 30mL of isopropyl alcohol, and decreasing each time with the last being about 10mL.

I had to add a lot of isopropyl alcohol to dissolve the last 2g of NaOH added to the combined extracts (I actually never got quite all of it to dissolve, and eventually got impatient and poured the solution into another flask leaving the bit of undissolved NaOH behind)). As can be roughly quantified from the florence flask picture, I had 225mL or more of liquid before adding the IPN. Sodium Hydroxide seems very insoluble in isopropyl alcohol.

I added 10.2 mL of IPN, ( I would have added a bit more but that is what I had), to the extracts and covered very tightly with two layers of polyethylene plastic bound with elastic bands. I let it sit overnight as before. In the morning I awoke to about 1 cm layer of Sodium Azide in the bottom of the 250mL florence flask.

It should be noted that the freebasing was performed with a lot of head space in the flask, which is not ideal as Rosco pointed out earlier. It was however well stoppered for almost the whole reaction.

The first picture shows my new 100 mL ground glass stoppered erlynmeyer while in the middle of the freebasing.(I am not sure if that stopper is meant to go with that flask, but it works and is the right size)

The second picture shows the 250 mL florence flask with about 1 cm of Sodium Azide on the bottom.



Freebasing Flask.JPG - 221kB Sodium Azide in Round Bottom.JPG - 253kB


[Edited on 22-4-2011 by Hydrazine H2SO4]

quicksilver - 22-4-2011 at 15:15

Your dark coloration may have been from some UV (in the sample above). Even a few minutes could do it. Or collectively even from window light over the course of time.

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 22-4-2011 at 17:39

Silver Azide is very light sensitive that is for sure. I left the beaker I used to precipitate the AgN3 out for the last couple of days, with a bit of AgN3 still in it. The beaker was not even exposed to direct sunlight and the color of the AgN3 has gotten to be about twice as dark.

It was at night when I made the AgN3 with an incandescant bulb hanging from the ceiling for lighting. The AgN3 came out of solution looking exactly the way it does in the photo, actually darker because it was wet. I think I left a little bit of undissolved NaOH with the hydrazine hydrate extracts on that first run that most likely ended up with my NaN3 yeild.

It is surprising how photosensitive AgN3 is. I guess it would be a good idea to synthesis it in the dark, or very dim lighting.

It is possible that alkaline pH could result in silver oxide being produced isn't it? I noticed the couple of Silver Azide syntheses I have seen didn't use NaOH, unlike the couple of Lead Azide syntheses I have seen.

BTW, how much Isopropyl Nitrite should I be adding to the Hydrazine Hydrate Extracts?

It sort of seems by examining the stoichiometry that I used almost twice as much IPN as needed in my last batch. I found the density of my IPN to be approximatelly 0.86 g/mL, it would changes a bit with temperature though.

I just found a post from 2003 by Mr. Anonomous who says that a slight equimolar excess of IPN should be added to the Hydrazine Hydrate extracts, along with a slight equimolar excess of NaOH. I think I read that right. The post was actually made by Polverone for Mr. A, and the post had more to do with making HS than NaN3. It would seem I did add too much.

[Edited on 23-4-2011 by Hydrazine H2SO4]

Rosco Bodine - 22-4-2011 at 21:40

You could possibly chromate the silver azide as a light block and it should make it a pretty scarlet red color. Chromated lead azide is described in a patent and I could probably dig it up. I have suggested chromating for silver fulminate and
other salts where this may be beneficial as a kind of near insoluble and stable and insensitive barrier coating for reactive or sensitive substrates. Basically you just stir up into suspension your particles to be chromated and drip in some sodium dichromate or other soluble chromate and let the metathesis proceed which deposits a nanometers thin plating of the chromate of the cationic portion of the substrate onto the particles. Just an even coloration is probably a good visual endpoint for this but I have never done it so I can't confirm.

Jimbo Jones - 23-4-2011 at 00:22

Did you use tap or distilled water in the silver nitrate process? Yes, SA is very light sensitive, but I still believe that the silver chloride, sulphate and carbonate are the main reason for this odd, grey color. I just tested 4 caps with MHN and the heavily gelatinized lead azide. They work like a charm, but 0,5 % gelatin will be far better!

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 23-4-2011 at 06:10

I have never heard of Chromated Azides or Fulminates before, but it sounds really interesting. I also enjoy experimenting with Silver Fulminate, which definately is another very light sensitive material. I have a feeling that Silver Fulminate is a very good primary which has been unjustly maligned to a large extent.

I have been using RO water (Reverse Osmosis) water from the Refill Station at the Grocery Store. My tap water here is full of chlorine, and probably lots of other stuff, which would be no good at all.

I would also like to note that my yeild of Sodium Azide for both runs was about 50% based on Hydrazine Sulfate started with. I believe Rosco said somewhere that he gets 70 or 80% yeild. I am sure though that I can make many improvements to my process. I am actually just "pleased as punch" that I can make azides from base chemicals. Having a high yeild is nice, but it is secondary.


[Edited on 23-4-2011 by Hydrazine H2SO4]

Rosco Bodine - 23-4-2011 at 10:02

A virgin synthesis yield of the desired product is usually pleasing, but it gets better after you break her in and get everything properly optimized :cool:

Here is a copy and paste from my 03-29-2004 post in ye old E&W forum and tavern where the chromated lead azide was mentioned in the past. The third patent GB180605 is one of the early Friedrich patents where it is possible that early and unidentified as such azo-clathrates were actually being produced which were later better described as clathrates
in the Kenney patent.

Copied post below and patents attached

For those who are interested in technical improvements
related to lead azide , here is a little known technology
which may be worthwhile as a source of experimentation .

GB806568
US2989389

The patents describe a process by which lead azide crystals
may be coated with an adherent film of lead chromate ,
by suspension of the crystals in a solution of sodium dichromate .

The result is a free flowing granular form of lead azide having improved
flame sensitivity comparable with Lead Styphnate sensitized mixtures .

While it may not be claimed by the patent , I would guess that the
adherent film of lead chromate probably enhances the resistance of
the lead azide to deterioration from carbon dioxide of the air , which
would improve its long term storage stability .

Early research concerning double salts and multiple salts of lead azide
of interest , is described in another patent of interest :

GB180605

The first double salt mentioned is 95 % lead azide / 5 % basic lead azide .
Many times I have seen it reported that a small percentage of the basic
lead salt greatly improves the crystalline form , handling characteristics ,
and storage stability of "lead azide" . This leads me to speculate that
in those cases where such improvement is reported , what may actually
be described is the formation of such a double salt containing the 5 %
of the basic lead azide . The interest which should lead to experiments
concerning this "95 / 5 double salt" is twofold , in that such an improved
form of lead azide would already have enhanced stability and handling
characteristics over straight lead azide *AND* there is a good chance
that such a double salt could also be "chromated" by a similar method
as the first patent . The potential of such a product is a desirable modification
of lead azide having significant improvement of its handling ,
and storage and ignition properties over pure lead azide .

There have been no experiments by me concerning either one of these
patents . But they are so interesting because of the implications ,
it seemed worth sharing these references and my ideas about their
worthiness for experimentation .


[Edited on 23-4-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Attachment: GB806568 Chromated Lead Azide.pdf (151kB)
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Attachment: US2989389 US Chromated Lead Azide.pdf (160kB)
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Attachment: GB180605 Lead Azide Double Salts.pdf (286kB)
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Hydrazine Poisoning

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 23-4-2011 at 13:03

I am making a separate post because I want this to be noticed.

This may make me look sort of foolish, but I don't mind. In one of my earlier experiments when I was freebasing Hydrazine Sulfate by Rosco's method with the water only (but in super small scale), I got a couple whiffs of Hydrazine.

It is also important to note that my reaction vessel wasn't sealed like Rosco's instructions suggested it should be.

The problem with small batches is that they have very little water and a lot of surface area. If the reaction is quite warm (and this one is), the few mL of water will evaporate very quickly. Without the water to hold the Hydrazine in solution, and to keep the temperature low enough that the Hydrazine has lower vapor pressure, You can get gassed with Hydrazine! Things can happen very quickly with a small batch!

On one of my earlier 3g batches I was using just water and Sodium Hydroxide to do the freebasing. I added the NaOH a little too fast maybe, and wasn't paying attention as much as I should have. The water mostly all evaporated (the whole 3 mL or whatever it was), and then Hydrazine fumes started coming off of the very warm mixture. I quickly added water but I had already sucked up some vapors. That was six days ago. I felt pretty rough for the first few. Mostly just a weird headache and a really sore throat. I am feeling much better for the most part the last day or so, but my throat is still pretty sore.

I am not saying don't experiment with this stuff. I still am going to, but I definitely learned a lesson the hard way.



[Edited on 23-4-2011 by Hydrazine H2SO4]

Rosco Bodine - 24-4-2011 at 14:11

Haji here, your Tech Support service representative for banishment of death fears.
Please understand your prayer to heaven was heard, but in these times of economic distress, austerity measures have forced the redirection of prayer response fulfillment services to outsourced contractors in India ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHQs19sPdFE&fmt=18


Hydrazine H2SO4 - 24-4-2011 at 16:31

I think I'm going to make it, but I am glad that Rosco is praying for me.;)

Seriously it was a pretty dumb thing to do. When I am into an experiment I sometimes get a little overenthusiastic, and not think things through enough. As long as I didn't do myself a lot of harm I did learn a lot ,and I certainly understand this chemical a lot better than I did a couple of weeks ago.

I have to say though that this stuff seems to have a worse effect on me personally than nitric oxides, but then again I am not sure of the dose I took either.

I think the big thing with my sore throat is that it is already sensitized. I have pretty bad gerd most of the time, so it doesn't take much to get my throat inflamed. I tend to be kind of sensitive to many chemicals as well.

Rosco, a few posts back I posted a picture of a small Silver Azide yeild and it was quite dark colored. I am pretty sure it was because of the NaOH also in solution with NaN3 used. I was reading through some of the old Rogue Sci stuff by Microtek and I think he said that the NaOH would cause Silver Hydroxide to form. There shouldn't be any NaOH in a Silver Azide synthesis right? Do you use NaOH in a Lead Azide synthesis?

BTW Rosco, you and I used to discuss Picric Acid in another thread. Well mostly I was picking your brain, but sometimes I had a few good ideas.

[Edited on 25-4-2011 by Hydrazine H2SO4]

Rosco Bodine - 24-4-2011 at 18:21

Neutral azides are made by double decomposition using neutral salts. If there
is a deliberate intent to form a basic azide or a normal-basic double salt or clathrate that may be accomplished at some point by use of NaOH or other base
in a very precisely calculated quantity. For inhalation safety reasons to avoid the formation of hydrazoic acid vapors as might occur on pH going too low inadvertantly during a reaction intended to produce the normal neutral azide, a trace amount of NaOH may be used to keep the pH slightly basic.

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 25-4-2011 at 08:05

Thanks Rosco.

I just downloaded a great book on azides, Organic Azides Syntheses and Applications, published by Wiley in 2010. It can be downloaded for free. In chapter two it shows the two main routes to sodium azide, and the second method is the one we have been using except they use ethyl nitrite instead of isopropyl nitrite. Apparently it is called the Curtius synthesis of Sodium Azide.

2NaNO2 + 2C2H5OH + H2SO4 ---> 2C2H5ONO + Na2SO4 + 2H2O (1)

C2H5ONO + N2H4.H2O + NaOH ---> NaN3 + C2H5OH + 3H2O (2)


I also wanted to note that I was using H2SO4 to make the IPN the first few times, then I tried HCl and it is a much smoother process. With H2SO4 there is a huge amount of sulfate precipitate and a lot of red gas if you are not careful. I am finding with HCl that it is a trivial matter to whip up a little IPN in 15 minutes. Using H2SO4 still works but it was a lot more trouble. With the HCl method I just swirl a small round bottom flask in a salted icebath as I add the HCl.

[Edited on 25-4-2011 by Hydrazine H2SO4]

hydrazine, peroxide, azide

AndersHoveland - 25-4-2011 at 09:50

The oxidation of hydrazine sulfate by a mixture of hydrogen peroxide and dilute sulfuric acid produces hydrogen azide. Yields of up to 28% may be obtained from this procedure.
(A.W. Brownw, Journal American Chem. Soc.,1905, 25, p 251)

This procedure is somewhat dangerous since some HN3 may escape from solution.

Azides may be also prepared by oxidation of hydrazine by ammonium metavanadate
(A.W. Brownw and F.F. shetterly, Abstract J.C.S.,1907, ii. p863) the compound has the composition NH4VO3

Rosco Bodine - 25-4-2011 at 13:14

The Curtius reaction has many analogous parallels involving different solvent alcohols containing basified hydrazine and various organic nitrites. It might be
interesting to try normal butanol and butyl nitrite if the solubility of NaOH is
good enough. There is a sort of interdependency of solubilities and or vapor pressure of the organic nitrite which can make the reaction system favorable at ordinary pressure and normal temperature. Methanol is a very good reaction solvent, however it is necessary to conduct the reaction in a slightly pressurized
reaction system due to the volatility of the methyl nitrite which forms by transesterfication on contact with other less volatile organic nitrites. The methyl nitrite is highly reactive with the basified hydrazine, but the volatility of the methyl nitrite will cause it to not stay in solution for the reaction to proceed unless a slight pressurization of the reaction vessel is maintained. No problem using an all glass and teflon closed reactor with a tiltable "dip tube manometer" to bleedoff overpressure above about 6 feet or so of water column overpressure. Such a contraption was improvised for use by me by duct taping a length of PVC pipe to the neck of a clear glass bottle and filling the assembly with water. The vent line from the closed reactor was inserted entering the open end of the PVC water filled pipe and slid downward till the end of the vent line was visible inside the clear glass bottle serving as an observation window for monitoring emerging bubbles from the vent line connected to the pressurized reaction vessel.
The tiltable "overpressure release apparatus" functioned as a relief valve for the pressurized reaction vessel, and the head pressure maintained inside the pressurized reaction vessel could be increased by tilting the apparatus more vertical or reduced until venting bubbles were observed by tilting the apparatus away from vertical towards the horizontal by simply leaning the apparatus against a wall and adjusting the distance of the observation bottle with respect to the bottom of the wall to increase or decrease the angle of verticality.
Have never seen one in a book so I just improvised what was needed there
and it works perfect for a visually monitored method of maintaining a limited pressure. Of course an adjustable teflon relief valve with a low pressure range gauge would be nice too, if you have one handy.

In the hydrazine thread there is discussion about the hydrazone formation which occurs for reaction of hydrazine with a ketone such as MEK and it would be interesting to see what may be the reaction of the hydrazone with an organic nitrite in the presence of a base, if an analogous reaction will occur as the reaction of free hydrazine itself with an organic nitrite. If the reactions are analogous,
then a shortcut to azides would exist for simply being able to use the hydrazone directly, avoiding need for first isolating hydrazine as a sulfate and then freebasing to obtain the hydrazine as a hydrate then taken up in alcohol solution.
It would represent a significant improvement to be able to use the hydrazone directly for production of sodium azide, if it would work.

[Edited on 25-4-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 25-4-2011 at 15:16

That would be a great shortcut indeed. I can't buy MEK through the normal channels here, but I could get some if I really wanted to. I have read most of the Hydrazine thread by now, and viewed the Youtube videos relating to the Hydrazone methods. I didn't really study the whole thread or anything, but I have read through it, putting more attention on some parts than others.

I have to say I don't think wasting a liter of HCl every so often is a big concern. I get HCl for around $2 a litre through the regular channels. I did find that video done by Nurdrage to be very interesting though, good to know about other methods. In the end, all things considered your Urea method seemed to make the most sense for me.

I am working on another small batch of NaN3 right now. The solubility of NaOH in isopropyl alcohol is really poor. Maybe I should try the methanol. The solubility is quite a bit better in methanol isn't it?


Rosco Bodine - 25-4-2011 at 16:19

Yeah the solubility of NaOH in methanol is considerable. What would probably work very well is an ethanol solution of sodium ethoxide or that containing
some NaOH as this would be helpful in dehydration of the hydrazine hydrate.
Moving the reaction system more towards anhydrous condition favors the efficiency for the reaction producing azide and also favors a more complete precipitation of the sodium azide from the drier alcohol.

With regards to the possible usefulness of hydrazones there is a most fundamental hydrazone that is an alcohol soluble yellow crystalline material, formaldehyde hydrazone, a product of condensation of formaldehyde and hydrazine, also known as methylenehydrazine with a synthesis described here:

Levin J-O, Lindahl R and Andersson K Environmental Technology Letters 1988 (9) 1423

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a906...

The reported yellow crystalline solid may turn out to actually be the dinitrophenylhydrazone as opposed to the plain hydrazone. I have requested the reference article to obtain clarification on this.

I have an idea formaldehyde hydrazone may possibly be an interesting candidate for experiments towards producing azides or other possible compounds. It seems like an interesting material that would have some interesting potential as a reagent for synthesis of various compounds.

[Edited on 26-4-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Rosco Bodine - 26-4-2011 at 22:37

I was sidetracked on the hydrazone idea in part by a faulty citation. It is actually the azine that I was thinking earlier may be of interest as an azide precursor rather than the hydrazone, specifically the MEK azine. Semicarbazide is another material which might be an alternative precursor for sodium azide.

[Edited on 27-4-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hydrazine H2SO4 - 27-4-2011 at 13:27

I don't know much about it, I assumed they were the same thing. My theoretical chemistry background is miles behind a lot of the folks on this site.

Do you use the Tetrazoles any? Is there any advantage to them over the azides?

Rosco Bodine - 27-4-2011 at 22:15

Haven't tried a single tetrazole synthesis experiment yet but do have the necessary reagents and equipment to proceed when I get time for the experiments. I have a few years worth of experiments as an accumulated backlog and "to do list" but my time invariably gets taken by other things. That's one reason I post ideas here, trying to outsource ideas I can't immediately or even foreseeably get around to testing. Anyone waiting on me to get back with results on my own proposed experiments may be waiting for awhile .....like years. Definitely I am not avoiding the experiments because I enjoy doing experiments. It has been for years and still is true other business has priority and it looks like it will be that way for the foreseeable future of at least another year or more. Have other fish to fry as the old saying goes.






Silver Azide

atomicfire - 28-4-2011 at 04:31

Can someone point me to some more info on Silver Azide?

quicksilver - 28-4-2011 at 07:51

Quote: Originally posted by atomicfire  
Can someone point me to some more info on Silver Azide?


Such as what exactly? It may be one of the more researched primary in existence in terms of modern research methods and analysis.

Silver Azide RD 1336

Sickman - 28-4-2011 at 14:46

Follow the link to a thread (a part of this thread in fact) that has the pdf link to a British unclassified document for a state of the art synthesis of silver azide in a dense free flowing form suitable for whatever. The thread itself is also worth a read, hint hint!;).:cool:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1987&a...

Sickman

[Edited on 28-4-2011 by Sickman]

Hennig Brand - 29-4-2011 at 05:17

In my second last post I mentioned making another batch of Sodium Azide. I got another yeild very close to 50%, about 1.6g from 6.5g of Hydrazine Sulfate.

I decided I was going to purify the NaN3 this time, so I dissolved the ~1.6g NaN3 in a minimum of water. I found an old gallon jug of methyl hydrate, partly full out in the shed. I started adding it, quickly realizing I was getting no precipitate. I examined the jug and noticed the cover didn't fit or seal quite right, so I am assuming it sucked up a lot of water. I cursed for a while then decided to look up the solubilities of Lead Nitrate and Lead Azide in methanol. As it turned out Lead Nitrate is quite soluble in methanol, and Lead Azide is not. So adding a slight excess over stoichiometric quantity of Lead Nitrate dissolved in water and precipitated my azide as Pb(N3)2. Yeild was 3.44g of almost white Lead Azide.

A Lead Azide synthesis doesn't appear to be nearly as sensitive to NaOH, whereas Silver Azide would end up full of Silver Oxide. This is no surprise really.

I was wondering if I should be boiling down the alcohol that was used to make the Sodium Azide after collecting the primary/first precipitate of Sodium Azide. I have been just tossing the alcohol, but maybe I shouldn't be. The last batch had over 250 mL of isopropyl alcohol as waste, for a yeild of NaN3 of only 1.6g. I haven't found solubility information for NaN3 in isopropyl alcohol, but I bet I am throwing some good stuff away.

Pictures of the Pb(N3)2 precipitate in methanol and water, and the dry yeild (3.44g, from 1.6g of NaN3). I figure I lost at least 0.2-0.3 g in the filter paper.

Lead Azide precipitate.jpg - 274kB Lead Azide yeild.jpg - 322kB


[Edited on 29-4-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Microtek - 30-4-2011 at 13:43

Well, Pb(OH)2 is extremely insoluble so any hydroxide in your NaN3 soln would give rise to lead hydroxide in your precipitate.
It really isn't much of a problem though; just adjust pH to close to neutral and you'll have a reasonably pure product. If you're worried about HN3, use very dilute solutions. Not much HN3 will escape from a dilute solution and the heavy metal azides are so insoluble that you hardly lose any product.

Hennig Brand - 1-5-2011 at 08:11

Thanks Microtek. Have you ever recrystalllized NaN3, and if so what is a good solvent/method? I chose methanol just because it was cheap and abundant. I suppose converting NaN3 to Pb(N3)2 is a pretty good purification method in itself if done properly.

BTW, I was using the name Hydrazine H2SO4 earlier in this thread. I had not been in my account for a while (maybe 8 months), and was having trouble getting into it temporarily. With a little help I got back into it.


Re: Hydrazine poisoning

Formatik - 1-5-2011 at 21:30

Be sure to read the medical report link to in the hydrazine thread. Mild hydrazine toxicity can be fought with vitamin B6 and lots of antioxidants. The hydrazine headache could indicate liver damage already occurred, and then it can take a few days for some other effects to occur. Wear a respirator, even with short exposure encounters with the material. A pair of gloves would be good too. Also wear clothes you don't like because hydrazine leaves permanent groovy bluish turning pink stains on clothes.

Hennig Brand - 2-5-2011 at 07:37

Thanks for the information. I think/hope my exposure was fairly mild. I have been avoiding alcohol to avoid a negative compounding effect on the liver. The exposure was 15 days ago, and after about 7-8 days I started feeling mostly normal. I gotta say, I think a lot of my ill feelings came from nerves and worry.

From now on I am going to be much more careful when around possible sources of hydrazine vapor.

I am not trying to down play the importance of safety with Hydrazine, but in decades past there must have been many people exposed to Hydrazine when all the hazards were not well understood. I wonder what happened to them all.

If there was damage to the liver I hope it was just a bit of fibrosis and nothing that will cause cirrhosis. Fibrosis heals I have been told, cirrhosis does not.


Silver Azide experiment:

On a more positive note, I followed Microteks advice and adjusted the pH of the NaN3 solution before adding the AgNO3 solution to it. It was hard to tell exactly where neutral was, but I think I got it pretty close and the results speak for themselves. I was using some of those broad range pH test papers.

I kept the solutions fairly dilute as suggested, using 1.3g of homemade NaN3 in 100mL of water and 15% HNO3. I added a couple drops of HNO3 with swirling then checked the pH, by the time it was neutral I had added 8 drops. It maybe could have used another 1 or 2 drops.

Look at the nice white powder.:D
It actually picked up a tiny hint of grey just form the bit of light it was exposed to during filtering, etc.

Compare these pictures to the picture of my first attempt at AgN3, (half way down page 6 of this thread). White vs. dark grey.

I will use this routine the next time I make Pb(N3)2 as well.


Silver Azide precipitate.JPG - 203kB Silver Azide filtered.JPG - 210kB


[Edited on 2-5-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Hydrazine Sulfate storage question

Hennig Brand - 14-5-2011 at 08:29

I was wondering if it was better to store Hydrazine Sulfate or convert to Sodium Azide right away and store that? The assumption is that Azides are the desired end products.

If someone could describe good storage practices for Hydrazine Sulfate and Sodium Azide I would be interested also.

I know I am asking things that could be looked up, but I also know that many people on the forum have worked with Hydrazine and Azides quite a bit and have a good feel for things.


BTW, over on the Hydrazine thread I saw people saying that large glassware was not available to everyone and such and such. I looked around on the internet a while back and I found several sites selling 5L erlenmeyers. Apparently 5L erlenmeyer flasks are very popular with the beer brewing crowd to start yeast cultures. I think they normally went for around $40-$50, and were borosilicate glass.

Here is a picture of my large 5L erlenmeyer next to a 250mL erlenmeyer. Mine is older than the hills and was given to me. Since it is my largest piece of glassware it gets a pet name, "Big Earl".

Big Earl.JPG - 251kB

[Edited on 14-5-2011 by Hennig Brand]

quicksilver - 15-5-2011 at 08:32

Opinion based on observation:
I have seen NaN3 stored in common chemical containers. Stored and sold as one would most other common lab chemical, in a tightly closed container placed upon a shelf. However I have seen hydrazine sealed in a more resilient packaging. I would (were I to have a choice) bring hydrazine to an azide for sake of storage.
If there was a need to maintain the hydrazine as a liquid, etc - I would store it with those characteristics I would use with acids & consider breakage & fumes as priorities.
I once got a small refrigerator at a yard-sale from some dormitory for 10 dollars. I had often used that as it provided a semi-sealed & cold, dark environment for a great many chemicals.

Hennig Brand - 17-5-2011 at 19:46

I have seen Hydrazine and Hydrazine Hydrate in special containers, but Hydrazine Sulfate has always just been in regular dark colored, screw top glass reagent bottles from what I have seen. I noticed the same thing about NaN3, just stored in regular dark colored regular screw top reagent bottles.

I just realized I left about 30g of Hydrazine Sulfate out on a filter paper for about 3 weeks. I actually meant to put it away about twenty times, but somehow the time was never right. I am in the process of making some NaN3 with some of it, and I have to say it seems to perform quite normally. Will have a yeild tomorrow which will probably tell the real story.

From what I have read Hydrazine Sulfate is a very stable and oxygen resistant form of Hydrazine. I have seen sources say that it is still degraded by oxygen, but they never said to what exact extent, just that it was much less.

I will let you know what kind of yeild of NaN3 I get from the Hydrazine Sulfate that was exposed to the air for 3 weeks.


[Edited on 18-5-2011 by Hennig Brand]

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-5-2011 at 00:20

Hydrazine and hydrazine hydrate are glass corrosive and sensitive to certain metals acting as catalyst of its decomposition...so colourised glass (by metal oxydes) is doubly non suited!

[Edited on 18-5-2011 by PHILOU Zrealone]

woelen - 18-5-2011 at 01:03

I have some 64% hydrazine from a chemical supplier (Aldrich) and the hydrazine is stored in a brown glass bottle with a sturdy plastic screwcap and a teflon liner inside the cap. A soft plastic ring is around the rim of the bottle in order to make a perfect seal when the screw cap is closed.

If companies like Aldrich sell hydrazine in glass bottles with sturdy caps, then I am inclined to think that the glass corrosiveness is not as bad as people arte telling us. Of course, when distilling the material at higher temperatures things may become quite different, but on storage it seems perfectly valid to have it in a glass bottle. Hydrazine is a weaker base than NH3, so I think that the glass corosiveness indeed is very weak.

Maybe pure hydrazine is more of a danger, but my 64% solution (the rest is water) seems perfectly stable. I already have it for a few years and have no trouble at all.

AndersHoveland - 18-5-2011 at 01:19

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  

If companies like Aldrich sell hydrazine in glass bottles with sturdy caps, then I am inclined to think that the glass corrosiveness is not as bad as people arte telling us.


I had to dispose of my purchased glass bottle of concentrated nitric acid (70%) because the acid fumes rising up had caused the plastic screw cap to completely fall apart after two years, despite the liquid never actually being in direct contact with the cap. One would think the chemical company would know better, but apparently not.

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-5-2011 at 01:21

I also had NH2-NH3OH (NH2-NH2.H2O, hydrazine monohydrate, 64% N2H4 solution) from Aldrich (it was more than 10 years ago)but it was in special PE plastic bottles.

Maybe they have investigated the product and found out only concentrated hydrazine is dangerous to glass or maybe it is now a special treated glass or coated glass?

I see what you mean, but the strenght of a base or of an acid is not an indicator of glass corrosiveness... as a proof HF, a medium weak acid, is quite glass corrosive...all depends on the corrosion process involved in the corrosion ;)

Also it is possible the companies favourise the ageing of the consummers stock in a way they must refresh or use faster their product...so they buy more...money money money...

[Edited on 18-5-2011 by PHILOU Zrealone]

[Edited on 18-5-2011 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Hennig Brand - 18-5-2011 at 17:04

I mentioned in my last post, at the end of page 7 of this thread, that I had left some Hydrazine Sulfate out on a filter paper exposed to the open air for 3 weeks.

I used it to make NaN3 and have just taken the dry yeild. I got a little less than a 50% yeild as usual. If the yeild is different than with fresh Hydrazine Sulfate it is by less than 10%, I can't say exactly what the difference is because my process was not that precise.

To make a long story short, 3 weeks exposed to air at room temperature did not seem to make much difference to my Hydrazine Sulfate.


Edit:

Something else of interest I noticed. The last time I made NaN3 (over a week ago), I took the ~250mL of isopropyl alcohol with residual hydrazine and isopropyl nitrite and put it in one of the empty plastic isopropyl alcohol bottles. I just noticed tonight that there is quite a large amount of NaN3 precipitate in the bottom.

I just added another 250mL tonight to the bottle. In a week or so, I am going to get the NaN3 out of there and weigh it. Who knows, with this I may be up to the 70 or 80% yeild that Rosco says he gets (I think he said that somewhere).

Using the method I am using it takes so much isopropyl alcohol to dissolve the NaOH, that it makes for a very dilute solution and a sluggish reaction. I was still getting precipitate forming after a week!

Here is a picture of the second precipitate from the first ~250mL. I started with 6.5g of HS, and collected ~1.5g of NaN3 from the first precipitate, which I guess is really only about a 46% yeild. There does appear to be quite a bit more NaN3 formed though. BTW the bottle is a 500mL HDPE bottle.



NaN3 second precipitate.JPG - 202kB


[Edited on 19-5-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Hennig Brand - 29-5-2011 at 10:18

Just a quick correction. On the last page of this thread I stated that Fibrosis of the liver was reversible and that Cirrhosis was not. I was mostly going on what somebody else told me who should have known. I recently asked a doctor about it and he said Fibrosis normally results in Cirrhosis, and that it is Fatty Liver which is most often reversible. A few sources on the internet did indicate that Fibrosis can sometimes be reversible without leaving persistant scarring, but most often it is not reversable.

Fatty Liver is caused by any "insult" to your liver, Infection/sickness, toxins (hydrazine) and possibly even obesity are all believed to contribute to "Fatty Liver".

So on the last page when I mentioned Fibrosis, what I should have said was Fatty Liver (I think).

detonator - 11-6-2011 at 05:12

Do not know whether the hydrazine and sodinm nitric can response,if possible,do not know whether it is production of azide?????? :D

Jimbo Jones - 18-6-2011 at 00:10

I just finished my first hydrazine sulfate synthesis following the RB procedure. The yields are not bad, but I’m a little bit worry, because the crystals are still acidic even after the filtering and the alcohol washing. Is this normal, or I have to continued with the alcohol wash?

----pH: 1.3 (0.2M, aqueous)----

Well it's obvious now....

[Edited on 18-6-2011 by Jimbo Jones]

Rosco Bodine - 18-6-2011 at 10:56

The hydrazine sulfate gotten by precipitation from an acidic solution using an excess of H2SO4 is the monohydrazine sulfate which is definitely an acidic salt
and is far less soluble than the neutral salt which is the dihydrazine sulfate.
Hydrazine is a +1 base and associated covalently with a -2 acid H2SO4 you are going to net a -1 acidic compound something like an acid sulfate. Or it could be thought of as the neutral dihydrazine salt associated with an acid of crystallization ....which is more likely the reality .....but for simplification it
is simply by convention called the "mono"hydrazine sulfate .....and further
omitting the "mono" .....because it is the commonly supplied form that everyone understands and recognizes as "hydrazine sulfate".

Jimbo Jones - 18-6-2011 at 13:10

Yes, a salt formed from week base (the diluted hydrazine solution) and strong mineral acid. Member of this forum (Artem) sujested hydrazine nitrate route from solution of Ca(OH)2 in which the hydrazine sulfate is converted to dihydrazine sulfate and then mixed with concentrated calcium or barium nitrate solution. I think the low water solubility of barium nitrate will produce more pure product, because when you chill the solution the exess barium nitrate will just precipate. A little bit messy, but the whole process is very simple and free from hydrazine fumes.

I'm planning to mix the hydrazine nitrate with aluminum powder and bind the whole mass with NM & NC jelly, which (I hope) will protect the nitrate from moisture and LOD. NM is also a good choice of fuel too.

Rosco Bodine - 18-6-2011 at 13:30

There are way better more interesting things to do with hydrazine as an intermediate, where it can ultimately contribute more energy in a derivative product than some astrolite type mixture.

Jimbo Jones - 18-6-2011 at 23:56

I know that, but the hydrazine plastique above is cheap and easy to produce and will eliminate most of the troubles associated with the hydrazine nitrate explosives. The need of strong confinement, good density and very strong booster. It’s not ordinary Astrolite based energetic, which means low toxicity, better storage and nice molduble properties.

franklyn - 20-6-2011 at 07:31

Quote: Originally posted by Jimbo Jones  
" the hydrazine plastique above is cheap and easy to produce and will eliminate

most of the troubles associated with the hydrazine nitrate explosives."


Really , how did you come by this knowledge ?

Hydrazine Nitrate + Nitromethane + Nitrocellulose = ?

Hydrazine Nitrate on it's own as a solid tends toward low detonation,
the overall variability in VOD and variable sensitivity as a liquid militates
against predictable results and stable storage when yet combined with
other materials of dubious consistency.

See Sickman
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10058#...

my post following
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10058#...

then artem
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10058#...

and PHILOU Zrealone
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10058#...


Be aware also that a general rule of shock sensitive liquid explosives is that the
presence of minute bubbles makes it much more sensitive to much less of a shock.
In this condition concentrated Astrolite liquid is reportedly " as sensitive as ethylene
glycol dinitrate " that's a direct quote.

I'm reminded of another quote I read , written by Gerald Hurst , Cheif scientist
at the Atlas Powder company that developed Astrolite ,

" Several fellows discovered new ways to detonate it , but they're not around
to tell how they did it. Astrolite will blow up for it's own reasons and it is the
reasons you don't know that will kill you. Never try to make Astrolite of any kind
in glasssware unless , you're tired of living. "

Not unrelated
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16612

________________________________________________

P.S.
Why is this discussion in an azide thread ?

.

Jimbo Jones - 21-6-2011 at 02:49

""Really , how did you come by this knowledge ?

Hydrazine Nitrate + Nitromethane + Nitrocellulose = ?""

Hi, what do you mean with this “how did you come by this knowledge”. The NM and the aluminum powder are good and stable choice of fuels. The NC is simple energetic binder and will slow the evaporation of the NM & protect the HN crystals from moisture. A variation of the famous ANNMNC on steroids. It’s close to mind, so what’s so special about it?

""Hydrazine Nitrate on it's own as a solid tends toward low detonation,
the overall variability in VOD and variable sensitivity as a liquid militates
against predictable results and stable storage when yet combined with
other materials of dubious consistency.""

I don’t have any previous experience with HN, but from what I have read the density, the good confinment and the strong booster are important to insure high order detonation. I never used steel pipes or other metal container, so I chose the energetic plastic binder and aluminium powder which are proven sensitizer in the different explosive formulations.

Originally posted by Artem:

"“This results are typical for unconfined and cardboard tubes charges at diameters up to ~30mm. For charges > 40mm VoD vs density continuously increases. For example, figure 8.51km/s at 1.59g/cm3 was recieved for 2.5inch-charge (1th Symposium on Detonation, 22).

On my experience, in steel tubes and powerfull initiation HN gives exceptional brisance at diameter 20-25mm or more.”"

Am’ I missing something?

""Be aware also that a general rule of shock sensitive liquid explosives is that the
presence of minute bubbles makes it much more sensitive to much less of a shock.
In this condition concentrated Astrolite liquid is reportedly " as sensitive as ethylene
glycol dinitrate " that's a direct quote.""

It’s not a liquid explosive or Astrolite based composition. It’s plastique based on HN, NM, Al and NC.

""P.S.
Why is this discussion in an azide thread ?""

My first post was about the hydrazine sulfate process, I just wanted to share some additional thoughts. Sorry for that! In the future I’ll keep my mouth shut!



[Edited on 21-6-2011 by Jimbo Jones]

franklyn - 25-6-2011 at 06:16

@ Jimbo Jones

I can find no information whatever regarding blending Hydrazine Nitrate with Nitromethane.
The properties of the less reactive Ammonium Nitrate + Nitromethane are well studied and
the material composition is only prepared just prior to use as it is not stable in storage.
Nitromethane is somewhat sensitized by Aluminum more so by Nitric acid but particularly by
Hydrazine or its salts in amounts as low as 3 to 5 percent. Both Nitrocellulose and Nitromethane
are photolytically degradable , exacerbated by contaminants initially present and nitrogen oxide
accumulation subsequent to their formation. Hydrazine and Nitrogen oxides mutually decompose
producing more gas and moisture which promotes further decomposition and gas void formation
which acts to further sensitize the brew. All this contradicts your assertion which remains unfounded.
A related observation
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16612&...


Physical & Explosion Characteristics of Hydrazine Nitrate
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/1970001...
Quote , pdf page 18 , article page 13 " Compatibility Studies of HN With Various Materials "
" a frozen mixture containing equal proportions by volume of HN and Nitrogen Tetroxide initially at -100 ºC
showed that such mixtures react exothermically when the temperature is raised to -40 ºC."
- My comment - Not surprising since Hydrazine and Nitrogen Tetroxide is hypergolic rocket fuel. Having
Hydrazine in contact with nitrogen oxides is a bad idea generally.
Quote , on pdf page 19 , article page 14
" Medard ( 19 ) found that weakly nitrated explosives could be appreciably sensitized by a small amount of HN."
[19] Medard, Louis. Propriétés Explosives du Nitrate d' Hydrazine ( Explosive Properties of Hydrazine Nitrate )
Memorial du Poudres vol 34, 1952, pp. 147 - 157

Hard Start Phenomena in Hypergolic Engines
Volume III - Physical & Combustion Characteristics of Engine Residues

Also contains same parts excerpted in the report above
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/1975000...

Attachment: Decomposition Mechanisms & Chemical Sensitization in Nitro, Nitamine, & Nitrate Explosives.pdf (645kB)
This file has been downloaded 1258 times
Found here on pdf page 187 , document page 1027
Proceedings of the International Symposium on Detonation (9th) Vol II
www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a247996.pdf

Ethylenediamine Dinitrate and Its Eutectic Mixtures
www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a131641.pdf

.

AndersHoveland - 25-6-2011 at 14:05

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  

I can find no information whatever regarding blending Hydrazine Nitrate with Nitromethane.
.


Plain hydrazine and nitromethane are miscible, one would think hydrazine nitrate would also be soluble in nitromethane.

"With nitromethane, hydrazine forms an explosive salt."
"Nitromethane is strongly sensitized by hydrazine"

For some idea about the possible the reaction between hydrazine and nitromethane, you might read about the related reaction between ammonia and nitromethane, which forms ammonium methazonate.
(2)NH4[+] [-]ON=CHCH=NO2[-]
https://sites.google.com/site/ecpreparation/methazonate-salt...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16118
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1089

[Edited on 25-6-2011 by AndersHoveland]

Jimbo Jones - 26-6-2011 at 06:46

Actually Franklyn, no one ever made valuable tests around with ANNMNC except Axt, so the storage stability is under VERY big question too. Years ago I‘ve also made some tests with different AN/NM/NC % (just to hold more NM), but never tested any storage stability. After all AN is acidic by itself, which obviously is not too good for the NC and soon or later will destroy the “plastique”. So ANNMNC is equally or less unstable to my HNNMNC brew, but no one ever mentioned any possible danger.

Ok, from what I understand (thanks RED) the main problem will be the behaiver of the NC. NM will be sensited by the HN, that’s for sure, but aside that this nitro paraffin and the aluminum powder are fairly stable and unreactive. NC on other hand don’t like semi soluble in water solvents like NM, especially in combination with salts like HN. That’s why I think to skip the NC binder and will just use HN, NM and aluminum powder. If I’m on the right track this will eliminate the need of strong confinement and booster, but will manage to keep very good speed and brisance.


P.S.
This is my last post in this thread.

<<<<All this contradicts your assertion which remains unfounded.
A related observation

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16612&... >>>>

No one is perfect or protected from mistakes Franklyn. I’m not a chemist, but work very hard to fill the gaps.



[Edited on 26-6-2011 by Jimbo Jones]

Rosco Bodine - 26-6-2011 at 13:12

This entire long thread has not been reviewed but I am sure that it has come up before the possibility of producing sodium azide in aqueous solution, via nitrosation of semicarbazide, as a perhaps simpler alternative to the
reaction of free base hydrazine with isopropyl nitrite in alcohol containing sodium hydroxide.

There may be a workable method for doing the nitrosation of semicarbazide using sodium nitrite, and simply digesting the
aqueous reaction mixture at elevated temperature, which
reportedly will decompose the nitrosation product of semicarbazide, Carbamic Acid Azide, to Hydrazoic Acid, Ammonia, and CO2. There is only a brief mention of this in Richter near the bottom of the page attached.



Attachment: Carbamic Acid Azide page 447.pdf (188kB)
This file has been downloaded 1116 times

[Edited on 26-6-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 27-6-2011 at 12:09

BTW, in case anyone wanted to know the result of letting the reaction mixture in the picture above sit for a week, here is a picture of 0.5 grams of it (sodium azide) which I saved (the rest I used to make lead azide).

Notice that it took on a very pale yellow color, it still seems to work fine though.

I made a mistake in that I should have taken the yeild of the precipitate after the first 250mL had been in the bottle a week. I can however say that I get approximately a 46% yeild by letting the reaction mixture set overnight ~12hours. I can also say that this yeild increases to ~70-75% (though the second crop is a bit yellow in color), after letting the reaction mixture sit in a sealed bottle for about a week.

The 0.5g in the picture is just what I kept, the rest was used for making lead azide. Even though a little yellow, it made lead azide which seems to be as good as any other I have made.

Second precipitate.JPG - 213kB


[Edited on 27-6-2011 by Hennig Brand]

franklyn - 15-7-2011 at 16:21

From www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1987&page...
Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
I have an idea formaldehyde hydrazone may possibly be an interesting candidate for experiments towards producing azides or other possible compounds. It seems like an interesting material that would have some interesting potential as a reagent for synthesis of various compounds.

Formaldehyde Hydrazone , CAS 6629-91-0
CH2:NNH2

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=8112...

Lower Aliphatic Derivatives of Hydrazine
www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/021177.pdf

One idea I just had is reacting it with nitric oxide will leave a free bond ,
would a six nitrogen chain form ?

2 CH2:N.NH2 + 2 NO => 2 H2O + H2C:N.N:N - N:N.N:CH2

.

AndersHoveland - 16-7-2011 at 15:07

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  

One idea I just had is reacting it with nitric oxide will leave a free bond ,
would a six nitrogen chain form ?

2 CH2:N.NH2 + 2 NO => 2 H2O + H2C:N.N:N - N:N.N:CH2



Fairly sure the last intermediate would just decompose into diazomethane and nitrogen (N2), if not an explosion. After doing some research, apparently hydrazine and nitric oxide spontaneously react together.

This article may be of interest:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0040403907...
It basically says that (C6H5)NHN=C(CH3)2 reacts with nitric oxide (NO), in the presence of O2, to form
(C6H5)N=N--C(NO2)(CH3)2


[Edited on 16-7-2011 by AndersHoveland]

franklyn - 17-7-2011 at 06:28

@ AndersHoveland

Placing the bulk reagents in contact at ambient temperature is futile , given that
unsymmetrical dimethylhydarzine is hypergolically reactive with nitric oxide , the
methylene hydrazone would not be less so. Dilute very cold , even cryogenic
solution is called for , perhaps even done in the dark since nitric oxide is photo-
lytically catalysed. The hydrazone being basic will dissolve readily in sulfuric acid,
nitric oxide gas can be introduced into the space above the acid solution in a
closed reaction vessel gradually diffusing into and dissolved in the solution.
The supposed reaction then would precipitate the likely insoluble product desired.
The prospect of having a likely sensitive explosive detonate converting the acid
over it into mist requires exceptional precautions be observed.

The freezing point graph of varied concentration of H2SO4 is quite bizarre , varying
in no consistent way across it's range , attaining the lowest point of - 61 ºC at
approximately 35 % , and actually tends to supercool down to - 70 ºC.

Sulfuric acid freezing point, boiling point, density values
www.sulphuric-acid.com/techmanual/Properties/properties_acid...

Freezing point of Sulfuric acid solutions
www.unionbattery.com/images/2.6.pdf

Sufuric acid technical bulletin
www.sulcochemicals.com/Acid_Electronic_copy.doc

Freezing points SO3 + H2O system
www.generalchemical.com/assets/pdf/Sulfur_Trioxide_Water_Fre...

________________________________________________

A reaction scheme having more probable success would be to utilize Carbohydrazide
which having two hydrazino groups on the same carbonyl assures probable ring closure.
Nitric oxide ( depicted ) or even nitrous oxide can be employed to yield in such case an
eight nitrogen ring. Both derivations being quite acid could be recovered as salts or
further reacted say with formaldehyde.


Carbohydrazide + NO.gif - 5kB

________________________________________________

While on the subject , it's worth mentioning that Guanidine may perhaps
undergo partial oxidation in this manner to yield Imidotetrazole. This is of
some interest as abundant prussic acid gas would result from detonation.


ImidoTetrazole.gif - 5kB

- Footnote -
HCN is endothermic having an enthalpy of formation of + 36 Kcal/ mol
so it is entropically disadvantaged to form in the chaos of a detonation ,
however it is not explosive and the alternative formation reduced carbon
and hydrogen are less favored.

[Edited on 18-7-2011 by franklyn]

AndersHoveland - 17-7-2011 at 14:21

I just do not know. As far as I know, such long chains of nitrogen have never been synthesized (unless stabilized by hydrocarbon groups on every few nitrogen atoms. Aromatic rings have much more stability.
There have been many attempts to prepare/isolate "tetrazene" (N4H6), none of which have been successful.
Long linear chains of nitrogen atoms typically break down into diatomic nitrogen and radicals of nitrogen derivitives. I suspect that there might be some way to prepare the type of compounds you are suggesting, but it would likely require dry ice/ liquid nitrogen temperatures. I am not aware of any serious attempts at research into these highly unstable compounds. Typically, such reactions simply result in decomposition, liberating nitrogen gas, or explosions. One would think that the reactions you are suggesting are straightforward enough that someone would have already tried them. In the scientific literature, we much more often hear about the few successes than the many failures.

Nitric oxide may be produced by reaction of sodium nitrite with dilute hydrochloric acid, with ferrous sulfate, (FeSO4) also present to react with, and prevent the escape of, the nitrogen dioxide. The reaction is basically:

(2)NaNO2 + (2)H2SO4 + (2)FeSO4 --> Fe2(SO4)3 + Na2SO4 + (2)H2O + NO

nitrosation of semicarbazide related

Rosco Bodine - 3-8-2011 at 08:54

The prospect of an easier method for producing azides has caused mention at various times for years the nitrosation of semicarbazide or similar compounds as a potentially convenient route, yet no really definitive method has yet been fully described. There are found many references made somewhat as a brief notation or note in passing which suggests that a synthetic procedure having an azide as the intended product is possible, so it seems odd that such an alternative synthetic route intending specifically to produce azides has not yet been described in all details as a dedicated synthesis. Possibly such references do exist but are in different languages or in obscure older references and have never been surveyed and combined in one English language summary procedure.

Axt mentioned this possible method six years ago in another thread http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=6729
and the subject has been mentioned in variations several times in several different threads over the years, here and also at many other discussion groups, with no followup reported which has brought more than little more scraps of information which could lead to formulating alternate syntheses for azides, based upon nitrosation of hydrazine derivatives. There is something of an overlap for the chemistry involving azides with cyclized products that are tetrazoles and triazoles and references more specifically about those materials also sometimes relates back to the more fundamental azides. Attached is an article pertaining to Carbamoyl Azides which should be helpful, and the
reference #17 related to the nitrosation of semicarbazide
described in a German journal is additional reference which will be further attached here when it is obtained.

And additional general summary article concerning organic azides is here:
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic208898.files/week...

Attachment: Carbamoyl Azides.pdf (709kB)
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[Edited on 3-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Reference #17 Hofsommer and Pestemer article

Rosco Bodine - 7-8-2011 at 08:16

The experimental part of the attached describes the reaction of nitrous acid and semicarbazide producing a 70% yield of Carbamyl Azide.

A translation of the relevant portion would be helpful if anyone may assist, thank you.

Attachment: Carbamyl Azide 70 per cent yield from Semicarbazide Hofsommer and Pestemer article.pdf (518kB)
This file has been downloaded 1024 times

Über die Ultraviolett-Absorption und Konstitution von Tetrazenen aus Aminoguanidinsalzen
Ruth Hofsommer, Max Pestemer

Zeitschrift für Elektrochemie und angewandte physikalische Chemie
Volume 53, Issue 6, pages 383–387, Dezember 1949

DOI: 10.1002/bbpc.19490530612

Also back on page 3 and 4 of his thread S.C. Wack posted some attachments which are are scans of articles relating to oxidation of hydrazine sulfate with H2O2 and nitrous acid and other oxidizers. Some more legible scans are now available and these are also attached as an update.

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  

probably as easy as it gets
JACS 27, 551 (1905):


A New Synthesis of Hydronitric Acid (attached)
The Oxidation of Hydrazine (attached)

Attachment: A New Synthesis of Hydronitric Acid pages from JACS.pdf (196kB)
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Attachment: Pages from JACS Oxidation Of Hydrazine.pdf (769kB)
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[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Potassium Azide

Hennig Brand - 7-8-2011 at 19:32

KN3 (Potassium Azide) has been discussed on the forum before, but not in much detail as far as I know. Going with the potassium salt can have its advantages.

I am eventually going to make a large tilt tube manometer like Rosco uses for maintaining a safe pressure in the reaction vessel, and use methyl alcohol as the reaction medium to make sodium azide, but building and using it is just not convienient right now. For now I have found that I can get fairly good results without the transesterification issue with isopropyl alcohol and KOH in place of the NaOH.

I was having a hard time finding solubility information for the hydroxides in isopropyl alcohol. I could find lots of solubility information for the hydroxides in methyl and ethyl alcohol, which showed KOH as having much superior solubility than NaOH in both alcohols. I figured it would be similar for IPA as well.

I decided to try a synthesis and see how it went. I already knew from past NaN3 syntheses that it took over 250mL of IPA to dissolve 2g of NaOH (at room temperature). For the same sized batch (moles of hydrazine), ~2.8g KOH is needed. I found that the 2.8g of KOH would easily dissolve in 150mL of IPA, and maybe less. This change in reactant concentrations had a tremendous effect on the reaction kinetics. There may be other things which contributed to the change in the reaction rate as well.

I started with 6.5g of homemade Hydrazine Sulfate in both experiments. I also did the Hydrazine freebasing with NaOH for both experiments.

Experiment 1

With the NaOH and 250+mL reaction mixture, I was getting approx. a 46% yield of NaN3 based on Hydrazine Sulfate after 12 hours. In order to get the yield up to 70-75%, it took most of a week. I think 75 or 80% is about the max for this reaction anyway.


Experiment 2

With KOH and the 150mL reaction mixture things were much better. I left it for 12 hours, then decided to leave it another 12 (to tell the truth I don' t think that much more precipitated after the first 12 hours though). So, after 24 hours I filtered and dried and was rewarded with a 76% yield of KN3 based on Hydrazine Sulfate. Potassium azide also precipitates in larger, easier to work with crystals than NaN3.

The heavy metal azides can be made just as easily from KN3 as NaN3, but the mass of KN3 used needs to be adjusted to compensate for the heavier potassium cation in order to provide the same amount of N3 for the double displacement reaction.

Using methyl alcohol as the reaction medium would be much more efficient as far as materials are concerned, but this requires no special glassware at all, or other apparatus.

Here are some pictures of my KN3 synthesis.


KN3 precipitate after 12 hours.JPG - 215kB KN3 in filter.JPG - 210kB KN3 dried.JPG - 275kB


[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 7-8-2011 at 21:55

Interesting refinement there, basically using the method of Microtek through the point of the freebasing of the hydrazine, and then using KOH for the third molar equivalent of the 3 total hydroxides. There is always about 10 to 15% residual H2O in KOH which can't be gotten out during ordinary manufacture. When doing your calculations for stoichiometry if you weren't using some excess sufficient to account for the moisture then it could clip the yield. But 76% is a very good yield so I am guessing you probably had a slight excess of base. It's touchy, because you want plenty of base to do the job of neutralizing the hydrazoic but not so excessively basic as to decompose the nitrite ester as a competing reactant with the hydrazine. You had to be in the right area get 76% yield.
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