Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Japanese nuclear reactor problems

Japanese nuclear reactor problems

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The WiZard is In - 19-3-2011 at 08:16

I think that nuclear power is the best (or least bad) option for a lot of energy needs now and in the foreseeable future.

I had alway look favorable on nuclear power, then I had an
epiphany some company maybe willing to pay me $3 000 an acre
to drill for shale gas in my 180+ acre wood lot!

I suspect the Reverend Thomas Robert Malthus will be proven
correct and the world will run out of food long before energy.

gregxy - 19-3-2011 at 08:57

The news from Japan has been improving. They have created a robotic
device to spray the spent rod holding pools. No kamikazi tactics appear
to be needed.

The media continues to focus on the bad news.... They found some spinnach
which if you ate if for a year would give you as much radiation as a CT scan.

The thing that I don't understand about the waste disposal plans is why they
want to back fill the burial sites. Why not put the containers of waste in Yucca
Mountain and leave them accessable. That way someone could check them
every 10,000 years to see if they are leaking. Or maybe someone will find a
use for the stuff or even better way to dispose of it.

bfesser - 19-3-2011 at 09:16

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

Say ... anyone other then myself remember the murder/suicide
at that US Navy experimental reactor? They had to chop up one
of the sailors and bury parts of him in a hazardous waste site!

The SL-1 excursion?

The WiZard is In - 19-3-2011 at 11:11

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

Say ... anyone other then myself remember the murder/suicide
at that US Navy experimental reactor? They had to chop up one
of the sailors and bury parts of him in a hazardous waste site!

The SL-1 excursion?

Exactly!

Attachment: SL-1 Reactor Accident 1.pdf (394kB)
This file has been downloaded 767 times

Magpie - 19-3-2011 at 11:48

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

Say ... anyone other then myself remember the murder/suicide
at that US Navy experimental reactor? They had to chop up one
of the sailors and bury parts of him in a hazardous waste site!

I remember hearing of this event several times when working in nuclear waste management. I recall little of the story now except that it was due to a love triangle, IIRC. This took place at the US Navy's research/training station in southern Idaho, at Arco, again IIRC.

madscientist - 19-3-2011 at 12:06

The Wizard is In: Did you read my post on the top of the 4th page? It is not "Econuts" that believe Chernobyl to have caused thousands of deaths, but every authority worldwide that has studied the matter.

It takes a quarter million years for plutonium to become remotely benign. Since when has anything we've built held up without maintenance, without degradation, for even 100 years, much less 250,000?

Also, if you want to continue discussing this, you need to do so courteously, as watson.fawkes has asked you to do. If you do not find "Econut" to be inflammatory, then perhaps you will not be offended when someone calls you an "ignorant goofball"?

gregxy, the concerns with contaminated food go beyond the immediate dose of radiation received. Background radiation is just radiation, contamination is from radioactive matter. On ingestion, these radioactive particles are absorbed and some elements are retained - strontium heads to the bones, iodine to the thyroid along with plutonium to the marrow, etc. and can linger for quite some time, thus meaning a considerably higher and more dangerous dose.

On another note, I have an ebook copy of "Chernobyl: Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment." If anyone is interested, send me a U2U and I will be happy to provide it. (I'm not going to post it publicly - I don't want to put Polverone on the line for copyright violations.) Here's a teaser from the first few pages:

Quote:

"...For specified persons hospitalized after exposure to ionizing radiation and having no signs or symptoms of acute radiation sickness at the time of release, the diagnosis shall be 'vegetovascular dystonia.'" [From a letter from the USSR's First Deputy Minister of Public Health O. Shchepin, May 21, 1986, # 02-6/83-6 to Ukrainian Ministry of Public Health (cit. by V. Boreiko, 1996, pp. 123-124).]
...
"(1) For remote consequences caused by ionizing radiation and a cause-and-effect relationship, it is necessary to consider: leukemia or leukosis 5-10 years after radiation in doses exceeding 50 rad. (2) The presence of acute somatic illness and activation of chronic disease in persons who were involved in liquidation and who do not have ARS (acute radiation sickness - Ed.), the effect of ionizing radiation should not be included as a causal relationship. (3) When issuing certificates of illness for persons involved in work on ChNPP who did not suffer ARS in point "10" do not mention participation in liquidation activities or the total dose of radiation that did not reach a degree of radiation sickness." [From an explanatory note of the Central Military-Medical Commission of the USSR Ministry of Defense, # 205 dated July 8, 1987, directed by the Chief of 10th MMC Colonel V. Bakshutov to the military registration and enlistment offices (cit. by L. Kovalevskaya, 1995, p. 12).]

The WiZard is In - 19-3-2011 at 12:38

Quote: Originally posted by madscientist

Also, if you want to continue discussing this, you need to do so courteously, as watson.fawkes has asked you to do. If you do not find "Econut" to be inflammatory, then perhaps you will not be offended when someone calls you an "ignorant goofball"?

Well anyone willing to take the time to be a moderator deserves
having their suggestions followed by I. For sure - yes.

Ignorant goofball

Lets just say - The world would be a better place if
Grumpy Old Men ran it.

The Komsomolets reactor accident

The WiZard is In - 19-3-2011 at 13:04

From the Wall Street Journal 14iii90

Attachment: Komsomolets.txt (19kB)
This file has been downloaded 1162 times

hiperion42 - 20-3-2011 at 14:11

Quote: Originally posted by gregxy

The news from Japan has been improving. They have created a robotic
device to spray the spent rod holding pools. No kamikazi tactics appear
to be needed.

This is the most major nuclear disaster since chernobyl.
Forget about the news 'improving' thats just panic containment.

Quote:

The media continues to focus on the bad news....

One of the largest nuclear plants on the planet blew up.
I imagine there will be little positive attached to the name
Fukushima for a long time.

Quote:

That way someone could check them
every 10,000 years to see if they are leaking.

Check 'em every 10,000 years.
Check.

Cosmos 954 Reactor

The WiZard is In - 21-3-2011 at 13:26

Anyone beside myself remember — The Cosmos 954 reactor
Operation Morning Light?

El book sez C 954's reactor was "...estimated to contain on the
order of 150 kg of highly enriched uranium 235. However, such
reactors employ a fission process which produces radioactive
strontium, cesium, iodine, and other radioactive fission products."

I would opine that Operation Northern Light was 99 and 44/100's
percent political, intended to make the Russian's look bad. OK I know
the product of Stalin's loins already looked bad, the US &c. want
it to look really bad.

Current US program - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_for_Nuclear_Auxiliary_P...

[Edited on 21-3-2011 by The WiZard is In]

[Edited on 21-3-2011 by The WiZard is In]

[Edited on 22-3-2011 by The WiZard is In]

The WiZard is In - 22-3-2011 at 06:57

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

an intractable waste problem No. It is only an intractable
political problem not an engineering problem.

The waste depository in Utah was originally required to store
waste for several thousand years. The Econut's complained ..
we went 10 000 years. The Gov spent money by the wheel barrel..
you got your 10 000 years. The Econut's had a sissy fit ... we want
100 000 years. Another ton of money. You got you 100 000 years.
Once again .... we want a million years. More money... you got
you million year guarantee. Three guesses and the first two don' count ... we
want it guaranteed to the end of time! A SL of gov money latter...
sorry no can do. Econut's ... obviously you can't use this facility.

So now in the US of A waste is stored in the worse possible place.. on site.

Greater Danger Lies in Spent Fuel Than in Reactors
By KEITH BRADSHER and HIROKO TABUCHI
New York Times
Published: March 17, 2011

Years of procrastination in deciding on long-term disposal of highly
radioactive fuel rods from nuclear reactors are now coming back
to haunt Japanese authorities as they try to control fires and
explosions at the stricken Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power
Station.

Some countries have tried to limit the number of spent fuel rods
that accumulate at nuclear power plants: Germany stores them in
costly casks, for example, while China sends them to a desert
storage compound in the western province of Gansu. But Japan,
like the United States, has kept ever-larger numbers of spent fuel
rods in temporary storage pools at the power plants, where they
can be guarded with the same security provided for the plants.

http://tinyurl.com/4mxbwlz

aonomus - 26-3-2011 at 23:54

As much as it seems like no news is good news, I spotted this nugget from http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/

"NEWS ADVISORY: Over 1,000 millisieverts per hour found in water at No.2 reactor"

1Sv/hr is getting into serious radiation poisoning territory. As a result of the high readings authorities have once again pulled workers back.

Additionally the other day, neutron radiation was observed outside the building from 1.5km (http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80539.html), albiet at a low value, its not a good sign. Sure the neutron radiation could be from residual U/Pu from steam releases or leaking coolant, but to observe neutron radiation from a distance, have workers come back with radiation burns due to water in their boots, and spiking radiation levels of 1Sv/hr sounds more like loss of primary containment to some degree. Perhaps just some molten material leaked and eventually self-solidified seaking the breach (loss of fissile material leads to loss of criticality and decrease in heat leading to solidification of molten fuel mass).

I'm starting to become a little more concerned despite being halfway around the globe. This is now worse than Three Mile Island but not worse than chernobyl.... thoughts?

Ephoton - 27-3-2011 at 22:15

ahh the fear of dirty bombs is what kept them at the plant.

terrorism stricks again or so we would be lead to belive.

why not just secure a storage place honestly you go into this kind
of endevour you pay up and do it properly.

and most of all who the hell makes a nuclear reactor on top of a fault
like japan has under it.

stupid stupid stupid.

still they make nice motor bikes.

aonomus - 28-3-2011 at 03:07

What worries me is the general message on the news that 'all is well' when I-134 has been detected and its short half life indicates that fission is going on still, which means criticality. Could be alot longer till its under control...

gregxy - 28-3-2011 at 12:50

Perhaps the I-134 comes from the decay of some other fission product with a longer 1/2 life or low level fission. I don't think
its presence would imply criticality.

They seem concerned about ground water comtamination, but is there usable ground water that close to the ocean?

Since they were pumping sea water through the core which is
part melted, it would seem like a great deal of radioactive material would have been washed into the ocean. I wonder
what effect that has and why a bigger fuss isn't being made
about it.

leu - 2-4-2011 at 10:18

Kearny's Nuclear War Survival Skills has been uploaded to the FTP :cool:

franklyn - 5-4-2011 at 07:07

Just because an event can be viewed as improbable does not mean it is avoidable
and can be dismissed. The problem with light water reactors as the ones in Japan
is that these are not fault tolerant. The seismic event that caused all this havoc
was only a theoretical possibility and confidence based on optimism as it turned
out is not a viable substitute for guaranteed assurance of benign failure.
The prevalence of this reactor type was bolstered by it providing from spent fuel
reprocessing a ready source of plutonium for strategic arsenals. The waning legacy
of cold war arms and commitment to impeding proliferation of their potential
production and wider availability, in concert with the known safe alternatives to
the old water moderated reactor type technology now over 50 years old, sets the
design basis for nuclear power sources to meet the world energy emerging demand.
High Temperature Gas Reactors and molten salt core thorium models gave been
tested that serve the requirement.
http://web.mit.edu/pebble-bed/Presentation/HTGR.pdf

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/02/china-thorium-powe...

.

Well it seems to be pretty bad...

albqbrian - 12-6-2011 at 20:25

I just read an article where Tepco admits that the fuels rods in RXs 1,2,3 have melted through their reactor vessel and are now laying on top of the final containment barrier. It's a 30ft thick reinforced concrete pad as I recall. This would certainly explain how they keep finding all these unexplained, high level radiation events.

This is bad on many levels. One, we're doing a real life experiment to see if all those pre-construction simulations on the worst case are correct. Next, Tepco continues their perfect streak of always denying the worst till they admit it. Which they always do. Ah, so that where The Weiner Man got his defense strategy

I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more press. Stay tuned. For some reason I don't think we've heard the last of this.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/its-official-nuclear-fuel-h...

IrC - 26-6-2011 at 21:49

No I don't think we have heard the last of this, unless pissing radiation isn't new.

http://www.businessinsider.com/residents-near-fukushima-are-...

Residents Near Fukushima Are Pissing Radioactive Urine

Newsflash: The radioactive crisis near Fukushima isn't getting any better.

This has been something we discussed in the last few weeks, but now there are some new disturbing details.

From Japan Times:

More than 3 millisieverts of radiation has been measured in the urine of 15 Fukushima residents of the village of Iitate and the town of Kawamata, confirming internal radiation exposure, it was learned Sunday.

Both are about 30 to 40 km from the Fukushima No. 1 power plant, which has been releasing radioactive material into the environment since the week of March 11, when the quake and tsunami caused core meltdowns.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/residents-near-fukushima-are-...

johansen - 27-6-2011 at 11:35

Many of you may know we pulled the USS Ronald Reagan out back in march, the 15th IIRC.
There were rumors that the reason was the radiation was setting off the ship's internal alarms.
While I do not have primary information to confirm nor deny that, what do know is that there were four aircraft (i do not know if these were the aircraft that were flown over the reactor that day, or if they happened to be left on the flight deck while the ship passed through a radioactive plume) Whatever happened, they were nearly determined to be a total loss due to radioactive contamination.
I suspect this was an over-reaction, but the aircraft for all intensive purposes had to be completely overhauled.

Does anyone have any primary sources on what happened to the fuel pool in unit three when it blew?

another disturbing report:
http://www.myweathertech.com/2011/06/16/radiation-in-japan-c...

stoichiometric_steve - 10-10-2013 at 07:22

it looks like recovery of the fuel from the pool of unit 4 without risking a major (read: global) accident has a zero percent success rate. prepare for an uninhabitable northern hemisphere.

it was nice knowing you guys, and i was happy to contribute to SM.

so long!

bfesser - 10-10-2013 at 09:22

The Japanese government has fucked up from the very beginning—approving the commissioning of the reactors in the first place. Horrible location, flawed design, inept company, inadequate governmental controls... Seriously, Japan should have zero nuclear reactors, being a seismic and volcanic nightmare—not to mention the tsunami hazard.

Perhaps this is part of their plan to bring about the extinction of the tastier whale species...

<img src="http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01656/Whaling_1656912c.jpg" height="200" /> <img src="http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fukushima_radiation_map.jpg" height="200" />

<a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24445242" target="_blank">

Quote:

<strong>Fukushima workers doused by contaminated water leak</strong>

Six workers at Japan's Fukushima nuclear plant have been doused in radioactive water, its operator says.

The incident happened after a worker removed a pipe connected to a water treatment system at the plant, Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) said.
. . .
But the incident is just the latest in a series of mishaps at the plant, and it will no doubt bolster the view of those who believe Tepco is bungling the recovery operation, our correspondent adds.

The pipe had since been reconnected and the toxic water was contained, Tepco said.

The incident is the latest involving worker error. On Monday, it was reported that a plant worker accidentally switched off power to pumps used for cooling the damaged reactors.

Last week, workers overfilled a storage tank, and about 430 litres (100 gallons) of radioactive water may have leaked from the tank, with some possibly flowing into the sea, Tepco said. <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" />

</a>
<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/29/us-japa-nuclear-risks-idUSTRE72S2UA20110329" target="_blank">Special Report: Japan engineers knew tsunami could overrun plant</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" /> (Reuters)
<a href="http://www.dailytech.com/Analysis+Japanese+Industry+Govt+Too+GreedyIncompetent+for+Nuclear+Power++Opt+to+Give+up/article24204.htm" target="_blank">Analysis: Japanese Industry, Gov't Too Greedy/Incompetent for Nuclear Power -- Opt to Give up</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" /> (DailyTech writer's opinions)

[Edited on 10.10.13 by bfesser]

jock88 - 10-10-2013 at 12:43

You keep mentioning the Japanese Government as the offending fool.
Would it not be more accurate and honest to suggest it's the worldwide nuclear industry 'watch dog' (and all those who have in the past and continue to believe a singly word from their gobs).

malford - 11-10-2013 at 04:34

This pales in comparison to the countless barrels of radioactive waste which were dropped on the sea floor off the coast of Europe. These barrels are corroding and some have began leaking their Pu-containing contents. In addition, one nuclear plant, Sellafield, in Europe was permitted to discharge its waste directly into the sea.

One of countless sources:
http://rt.com/news/nuclear-waste-english-channel-785/

ElectroWin - 11-10-2013 at 16:05

Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve

it looks like recovery of the fuel from the pool of unit 4 without risking a major (read: global) accident has a zero percent success rate. prepare for an uninhabitable northern hemisphere.

it was nice knowing you guys, and i was happy to contribute to SM.

so long!

please stop spreading disinformation and give a quantitative analysis of the real or potential spill.

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