Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Security of reagent orders from chemical companies in this age of chemophobia, paranoia and the oppressive health and safety...

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UKnowNotWatUDo - 1-3-2011 at 02:39

Like Regolith said, we get it you hate each other. But he has tried to redirect the thread back on track twice now (though still throwing a bit of a jab in). You on the other hand Sedit have done nothing but complain the entire time that the thread needs to get back on track while simultaneously doing nothing but bitch out Reolith. Your only goal seems to be to get Regolith to shut up. Asking Polverone to ban him or move the thread where he can't post? Not exactly the epitome of maturity. Not to mention that calling someone an idiot twenty times over and criticizing their reading and writing abilities falls a little flat when you yourself seem not to be able to spell simple words correctly. I could really care less what your respective view points are or why this has gone this far, but please lets just let it drop. If you both REALLY do want the thread to continue then let's let it continue now.

Regolith - 1-3-2011 at 02:53

Sedit, I'll share with you as well. I've had a student be ruined by meth. His mom was a meth head. He broke his arm and walked around with it in his jacket like frikin napoleon(for weeks). He tore up my classroom because "I was his friend" and "he felt he could only do that around me"...??? He had been a genius years before, the loss of human potential was staggering. Everything IS poison dosage and method of use is what separates it from medicine.

I perhaps jump the gun quickly when I feel more potential can be lost.

In your post I note that you don't seem to be on my side as you say. Saying I'm mistaken and then saying you don't care if I take offence.
Honestly I'm not hot headed anymore, but it still seems, in that post, like your calling me an idiot. I mean that's the reason I let turd have the last word. I've injected said drugs into an animal and done work on that animal, some do better on one than the other, there is only one now. I had my schooling in biology when you could get both. When I've done it with my own hands and seen it with my own eyes...

I conceded your point there both ring structures and have similar method of effect.

Now give me mine, when your using this on an animal as it's intended effect, sedation, there is going to be (sometimes marked) difference between the 2 on that animal.


I note as I check the thread before hitting post that turd is posting. Turd cmon your name is turd... and your pointing out my sarcasm. I was using that to make fun of you and you missed it.... My incredible obvious sarcasm went right over you and you pointed it out.. That is so great! Besides I have solvent not a drug. Further the use of that solvent on say an animal does not make it a drug still. The law is very clear where I am it must be a human. I DO work on my own living animals. Would this place like pictures of surgery on a gerbil ?

Sedit - 1-3-2011 at 11:31

Quote: Originally posted by Regolith  
Sedit, I'll share with you as well. I've had a student be ruined by meth. His mom was a meth head. He broke his arm and walked around with it in his jacket like frikin napoleon(for weeks). He tore up my classroom because "I was his friend" and "he felt he could only do that around me"...??? He had been a genius years before, the loss of human potential was staggering. Everything IS poison dosage and method of use is what separates it from medicine.



I feel for your student, and hence the reason I stated in one of my other post that no, I do not feel meth is good for most people who use it. Your story stil however along with mine brings the thread round about to where it was. Can drugs make you someone your not? I say yes. Agreed substances such as PCP do it quickly and in a single dose but the years of Lexapro and your persons Meth abuse are simple evidence of that.

The thing that was mentioned around the start of this discussion is, did that person have it in them to destroy the class room, or wreck the house, before the drugs where administered. Thats where the line gets blurry because I may have had it in me and just found something that unlocked a deep seated hate. Your friend could be simular.

PCP however causes things to happen like that colored fellow I seen on TV the other day, Butt ass naked running into a day care beating on everyone in sight. When the cops showed up not only did he repeatedly rip out the tazer prongs but it took around six officers to subdue him IIRC......

Now I may be wrong but I find it unlikely that there was anything deep seated enough in this mans soul to cause him to feel this needs to be done.
Quote: Originally posted by Regolith  

In your post I note that you don't seem to be on my side as you say. Saying I'm mistaken and then saying you don't care if I take offence.
Honestly I'm not hot headed anymore, but it still seems, in that post, like your calling me an idiot.

I conceded your point there both ring structures and have similar method of effect.

Now give me mine, when your using this on an animal as it's intended effect, sedation, there is going to be (sometimes marked) difference between the 2 on that animal.



I was explaining to you that yes you where mistaken. And repeatedly tried to clearify in following post that the rest was not directed at you. The way you took what I said and added alot of "I"s shows that you where taking much more personal offense to it then you should have. Its directed at people who have been programmed since early days of there life to hear the word "drug" and think death yet hear the word "medicine" and thing heal. All to often its as though the brain never sees the link between the two words.


Now as for the animal testing, this is what I was trying to explain in the first place. There is almost no marked difference between the two when tested blindly in a study other then marked change in the length of action. I believe it was turd who mentioned in blind studys humans could not tell the difference other then duration and "hangover". Ketamine is still used on animals and not PCP because of this short time frame of action and quick recovery of the animal. This could all be solved with a reference which is why Nicodem request them all the time, to avoid these long diatrabes of confusion. I will, in my own time see if I can find a double blind study between PCP and Ketamine. Since both have had human trials, if im lucky one will turn up where the animal can tell us whats going on.

Im glad your not hot headed anymore but I on the other hand still am. Sometimes that is, other times you could scream in my face and smack me around a few times without so much as a grimice on my face. But I still have learned to fight nice to the best of my abilitys as I get older. I have a major hot button however that you managed to hit but instead of spelling out what that button is im going to for once shut up before trolls use it against me in the future setting me off all over again.

turd - 1-3-2011 at 13:10

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Can drugs make you someone your not? I say yes.

Sorry, Sedit, this seems to be quite pointless metaphysical discussion. Every experience (substance related or not) will change you. Obviously it's not healthy (physically and psychically) to use amphetamines regularly. Same for good old Mary Jane, alcohol, TV and work of course. I've never seen a drug have as terrible effects on people as alcohol, BTW. On the other hand drugs can also have very positive effects, if used wisely. _Everybody_ knows these facts - if someone abuses amphetamines anyway, I cannot say that I feel too much sympathy for the person and I see no reason to limit availability for everyone.
Quote:
I believe it was turd who mentioned in blind studys humans could not tell the difference other then duration and "hangover".

Nope, sorry, I don't know of any such study. I'm just pretty sure that I would have trouble telling the difference. The substance with the hangover is DXM - absolutely terrible and not recommended.

BTW: I think your whole TV story is very unlikely. Any proof that PCP was the only drug involved (if at all)? Why can not a single of my trip partners relate to that? My answer: because we didn't believe it to start with. IMHO dissociatives can only bring up things that you have programmed yourself to. That's how they work - total ego loss and slow reintegration of your world. If the first thing that comes to your mind after a PCP trip is violence - then you probably _are_ crazy and should stay away from any sort of psychedelics. :(

Chordate - 1-3-2011 at 14:54

It is often the case that when interacting anonymously that it is easy to lose nuance and to act in a way we would never do in person. I see three people here who all have contributed to this board taking offense over a simple argument, and treating each other quite rudely.

We are all here for a mutual love of amateur science. There was a time when we would be called gentleman scientists. Treating each other poorly does not live up to this concept, and it creates a hostile atmosphere which can make people reluctant to share ideas and put themselves out there.

I have no authority here, and that's okay, because (ideally) scientists and gentleman should be able to conduct themselves and resolve their disputes without relying on authority, without taking things personally. And just as I hope any of you would treat me as a peer based solely on our mutual love of science, I ask you as a peer: let it go. This argument is ugly and not productive. If you must argue, then surely it is better to argue facts and citations, to not be rude, and to not take offense over such arguments.

UKnowNotWatUDo - 1-3-2011 at 15:33

Chordate I think your post is very much in the spirit of this forum and well put. But to be fair I think everyone has for the most part cooled off and returned to the discussion at hand.

Regolith - 1-3-2011 at 17:09

I for one am moving on. Were talking in a circle. Out differences can be decided down the road. Lets get back to. "The Phenol Failure" and how you should be smarter as a murderer in potentia. Or at the very least learn that phenol is a major component in aspirin before bitching out a supply company (oh yes he did, specifically called AGAIN to yell at them) that then is going to call the cops because they think your a crazy zealot bomb maker.

Sedit - 1-3-2011 at 19:21

Quote: Originally posted by turd  

BTW: I think your whole TV story is very unlikely. Any proof that PCP was the only drug involved (if at all)? Why can not a single of my trip partners relate to that? My answer: because we didn't believe it to start with. IMHO dissociatives can only bring up things that you have programmed yourself to. That's how they work - total ego loss and slow reintegration of your world. If the first thing that comes to your mind after a PCP trip is violence - then you probably _are_ crazy and should stay away from any sort of psychedelics. :(


Possibly your right, im just going by what they said on the show what substance he was on. It was one of those caught on tape shows not some kind of program discussing drugs in anyway. They just showed the video of a big huge naked blackman as he was trying to get back into the daycare center he just was in which he beat on a few people and he was obviously out of his mind so I don't think it was to unlikely that he was on PCP. Keep in mind as well that along with NMDA effects there is also Dopamine effects with larger doses of PCP along with another primary receptor I cant recall at the moment so alot of the effects it could produce are very dose dependent and what your experience, or my experience may have been could get much different once the receptors are saturated and it moves on to start affecting other areas of the nervous system.

Where as I was more curious at first and only used it once since my first few experiences because of a horrible toothache(I was up for days due to the pain, it was a god send when someone had it which rarely happens around my area), our experiences are more then likely powerful, yet not even close to the full effects this crazy substance could produce in someone who was just out to get high and took a large amount. To put it loosely it would be simular at high doses to someone taking PCP and a large dose of methamphetamine due to its further Dopamine actions at larger doses. Thats a scary thought in my book.



I have a question, we don't have methamphetamine where im from. Seriously, its almost non-existant being even more rare on the streets then PCP itself which is saying alot. Im curious as to what a meth getto looks like. I find it hard from my point of view to abuse amphetamines. Matter of fact I see it as impossible. Two days of taking a single dose of my perscription by the third day the effects are just awful. It feels just like the lexapro at that point IMO and it has no usefullness until its use is stopped for atlest 3 days. My biochemistry is highly different the the norm so im curious what these addicts really look like aside from the faces of meth propaganda.

quicksilver - 2-3-2011 at 08:05

One cannot overlook "side issues' such as route of administration, use patterns, quality or adulterants, & environment in examining drug use agenda.
These are complexities that make research more difficult; the oral vs. immediate introduction (i.e. smoking, intravenous injection, & so forth....).
Even the marijuana of today is completely different than the marijuana of the 1960-70's where generally speaking, the drug was not cultivated to highest range of psychotropic materials that are in existence in today's marijuana.

Magpie - 2-3-2011 at 09:14

Quote: Originally posted by Regolith  
"The Phenol Failure" ... bitching out a supply company (oh yes he did, specifically called AGAIN to yell at them) that then is going to call the cops because they think your a crazy zealot bomb maker.


Like all major US scientific suppliers Carolina Biological has a policy of not selling chemicals to individuals. So, how was he able to place the order in the first place? On TV the president of Carolina Biological was hailed as a hero for calling the FBI. Seems like he should have been kicking someone's ass in CB for making that sale. They didn't talk about that.

[Edited on 2-3-2011 by Magpie]

Also the Feds...

albqbrian - 27-5-2011 at 21:35

Always need a demon to BS the public about. I'm old enough to remember when it was LSD (all the way to Joe Friday on Dragnet basically saying a kid died of an LSD OD. Pure BS). Then it moved to PCP. Then coke. Then crack. Then Cat. Then Oxycontin aka Hillbilly Heroin. Then Ecstasy. Then super powerful new marijuana. Now it's meth.

Notice the trend? There's ALWAYS some big, new scourge menacing The Children. That can only be held at bay by ever more powerful weapons (till every podunk town has a Special Forces like armed SWAT team), more money, more mindless regulation. Always more, more, more. It can't ever be beaten for where would that leave these great guardians of our temptations?

It's obscene and futile. Just today I read a story where one of this POS Swat teams blew through the door of a 21yr old Marine. He was accused of drug and human trafficking. The police fired over 70 rds shooting him 22 times! And they found f***ing squat. No drugs, nothing. And after initially saying he fired at them (that always seems to be the case) it was admitted his weapon was unfired and on safe. Of course the police brass said that he shouldn't have had the rifle in his hands. WTF do you expect a trained military person (or any sane person for that matter) to do when his door is blown in by a bunch of trigger happy wannabees? Of course, no cop will be punished. It will be the man's fault for thinking of defending himself.

That's why drugs must be made legal. All of them. F**k it. They will do far less harm to society than the futile, decades long, ever repressing War on Drugs has. My only hope is that our spineless politicians will be forced to start legalizing, and taxing drugs; as they get increasingly desperate for revenue.

Rosco Bodine - 29-5-2011 at 11:53

Now there's a good argument for airlock entry hallways having claymores for ceiling tiles. The first and outside door is easily defeated but the second door is a security door. Come into my parlor said the spider to the fly.

Anyway decriminalization of all drugs would in one fell swoop destroy the black market which finances drug cartels and gangs and all of the associated countermeasures and expense would be eliminated ....the greatest part of all drug related crime would disappear. And there really would not be some sudden huge problem with drug addicts because the same addicts would be addicts whether it was legal or illegal .....the only difference is they could kill themselves quicker and more cheaply without undue interference in their self-destruction. The alternative is they produce more collateral damage when being interfered with by interventions which are not effective anyway and that ineffective interference has costs which are unbearable.

Just like the prohibition of alcohol created organized crime by the proceeds from bootlegging, so has the prohibition of drugs done exactly the same thing only a hundred times worse.

It's broke .....so fix it. Or stay stuck on stupid.

I would disagree with taxing the drugs however, as that would simply replace the black market expense with the government becoming the black market operator. This would be counterproductive to the plan of making the drugs very cheap and even free, like methadone clinics or government medicare provided pain medications. The whole idea would be to make the drugs so dirt cheap that there is no bootlegging incentive or crimes needed to support addictions. Addicts could simply indulge themselves
freely until their clock stops and they are no longer any problem to themselves or to anybody else. End of story.

[Edited on 29-5-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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