Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Make Potassium (from versuchschemie.de)

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blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 12:46

There's been much trouble at versuchschemie, not sure what though. If the potassium thread has been permanently lost then all the better we have this thread.

FriedBrain - 10-8-2015 at 15:27

No, the user left the forum and deleted all his threads, because of trouble with the admin.
But there is another thread about the preparation of potassium metal, I think it should be also very informative:
http://illumina-chemie.de/darstellung-von-metallischem-kaliu...

Also a user writes, that the use of n-Butanol was succesful.
And here you can find (an older?) thread from Pok. http://www.versuchschemie.de/ptopic,240058,kalium+patent+her...

[Edited on 10-8-2015 by FriedBrain]

blogfast25 - 10-8-2015 at 15:44

Quote: Originally posted by FriedBrain  
No, the user left the forum and deleted all his threads, because of trouble with the admin.
But there is another thread about the preparation of potassium metal, I think it should be also very informative:
http://illumina-chemie.de/darstellung-von-metallischem-kaliu...



Wow! That's quite a whopper of a K-nugget he's got there. Thanks for that link!

Waffles SS - 18-10-2015 at 10:09

I think this should be possible to use certain fraction of gas oil instead of ShellSol D70.

Fraction range from 200c to 240c after removing sulfur and aromatic compounds by sulfuric acid.

[Edited on 18-10-2015 by Waffles SS]

Feli - 20-10-2015 at 14:28

Shellsol D70 is not necessary requiert. I used some common lamp oil with the right bp and free of armomstics. Works just as good. Sorry for my bad english. :D

blogfast25 - 20-10-2015 at 14:35

Quote: Originally posted by Feli  
Shellsol D70 is not necessary requiert. I used some common lamp oil with the right bp and free of armomstics. Works just as good. Sorry for my bad english. :D


It does. The solvent is far less critical than some believe.

Feli - 20-10-2015 at 14:53

Well it just need to be a high boiling inert solvent...

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by Feli]

j_sum1 - 20-10-2015 at 15:46

I have had an attempt at this -- unsuccessfully. The medium I used was a paraffin bought from the hardware store. I have not been able to find much in the way of specific details on what it contains. The MSDS merely mentions "petroleum distillate" which is the same for a large number of different products.
I believe the temperature got up to around 200°C. I did get it refluxing nicely but it was out of the range of the thermometer I owned at that point. I should check this.
I have no idea if the paraffin contained any aromatics. What are the effects of aromatics in this context anyway? (I know this is probably somewhere in the 60 pages of this thread but I have not located it.)
I intend to add some potassium to my element collection over the summer.

elementcollector1 - 20-10-2015 at 16:15

Do you know what went wrong? Common problems are tert-butanol freezing in the condenser, not enough temperature, not enough stirring, and improper choice of solvent (reacts with one or more of the other things). I used kerosene and a borrowed Sterling hotplate with magnetic stirring (set to very fast, the stir bar was a blur) and refluxed for four hours. The reaction mix was a brown slurry by the time I was done.

j_sum1 - 20-10-2015 at 16:33

I may simply have not left it for long enough. I think I gave up after an hour and a half. The oil had gone distinctly brown.
Nurdrage's video does not have significant stirring and nor did I.
Anyway, that was months ago. i am much better equipped now and will give it another shot.

Feli - 21-10-2015 at 00:45

Why should the tert-butanol freeze in the condenser? You just mix it with some of your solvent and add it directly in the reaction mixture thought a syringe. Kerosene might not work for this because there is so much other waste products in it. I think you should use lamp oil which is hydrotreated if I pronounce that right. I also found out that decreasing the temperature lowers the yield quite a lot. I did it like lemmi from illumina-chemie.de (http://illumina-chemie.de/darstellung-von-metallischem-kaliu...). If you stir to vigorously its not possible for the potassium to for bigger lumps and you got lots of fine droplets of it. Separating these out is a lot of work.

elementcollector1 - 21-10-2015 at 04:08

Quote: Originally posted by Feli  
Why should the tert-butanol freeze in the condenser? You just mix it with some of your solvent and add it directly in the reaction mixture thought a syringe. Kerosene might not work for this because there is so much other waste products in it. I think you should use lamp oil which is hydrotreated if I pronounce that right. I also found out that decreasing the temperature lowers the yield quite a lot. I did it like lemmi from illumina-chemie.de (http://illumina-chemie.de/darstellung-von-metallischem-kaliu...). If you stir to vigorously its not possible for the potassium to for bigger lumps and you got lots of fine droplets of it. Separating these out is a lot of work.


To each their own, then. I found over the course of ten runs that if the water in the condenser was too cold, the tert-butanol would boil upward and freeze into acicular crystals that failed to re-enter the reaction mix (thus removing catalyst). Elsewhere in the thread, other people have had this same problem.

Feli - 21-10-2015 at 04:19

If you work with such a high boiling solvent I think you dont even have to cool your condenser with water. Air cooling should be enough.

blogfast25 - 7-11-2015 at 08:35

Quote: Originally posted by Feli  
Kerosene might not work for this because there is so much other waste products in it.


Commercial kerosene is a very clean, dry distillation product from oil. Unless tampered with, it contains no ‘waste products’.

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
To each their own, then. I found over the course of ten runs that if the water in the condenser was too cold, the tert-butanol would boil upward and freeze into acicular crystals that failed to re-enter the reaction mix (thus removing catalyst). Elsewhere in the thread, other people have had this same problem.


Yes, water cooling will have the t-butanol condense and freeze up, rendering it useless.

Water cooling isn’t however necessary: an air cooled Liebig or Allihn will do just fine and will avoid freezing out the catalyst.

Feli - 7-11-2015 at 11:15

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Commercial kerosene is a very clean, dry distillation product from oil. Unless tampered with, it contains no ‘waste products’.

Sorry I think I've mistaken it with petroleum.

Avoiding the troubleshooting.

KesterDraconis - 22-12-2015 at 20:56

I finally have all the equipment, reactants, and time to synthesize some potassium metal. However, after reading over a good deal, if not all, of the posts in this thread, I see a recurring theme. People try 4-5 times to get the right thing, often using various methods found throughout the thread. Finally they succeed, but after many failed attempts that seem avoidable.

I want to avoid as many retries as possible (though a few times is expected), so I am here to humbly submit the exact reagents ("reagents" as in-mostly crap from walmart) I will be using for approval.

My solvent will either be this baby oil- Is it made of babies? or this lamp oil-Lamp Oil

I believe I shall first try with the baby oil.

My magnesium is form galliumsource, here-Magnesium

I bought the superfine turnings, and struggle somewhat to get them smaller. Is this necessary, and if so, what would be the best method to achieve smaller particle size? (I don't have a coffee grinder, or anything similar, just a mortar and pestle)

My KOH-Potassium Hydroxide

My Tert-Butanol-Tert-Butanol

I know the tert-butanol source seems rather shady, but it did in fact deliver!

I intend to follow the procedure outlined by woelen on this page- Very organized and nice woelen page, many thanks for it!

If anything seems wrong with any of this, I would be happy to be notified, and change my plans accordingly. I only have limited time, and would thus very much appreciate any help or corrections!

elementcollector1 - 22-12-2015 at 21:41

Your reagents seem fine, but what about the apparatus? I've found that heavy stirring and good reflux is crucial.

Also, I'd give the lamp oil the first go - mineral oil just never seemed to do it for me.

KesterDraconis - 22-12-2015 at 22:18

A glass 100ml Erlenmeyer flask, a sand bath, and a Liebig condenser put in the stopper on top of the Erlenmeyer for reflux. I had not thought very much about stirring, thinking that is some was needed, simply swirling the flask a little would be enough. (though I understand the difficulty in doing this, due to the sand bath and clumsy condenser on top). What would you suggest for better stirring? (considering I have no access to a magnetic stirring mechanism)

Lamp oil it is.

blogfast25 - 23-12-2015 at 06:09

Quote: Originally posted by KesterDraconis  
A glass 100ml Erlenmeyer flask, a sand bath, and a Liebig condenser put in the stopper on top of the Erlenmeyer for reflux. I had not thought very much about stirring, thinking that is some was needed, simply swirling the flask a little would be enough. (though I understand the difficulty in doing this, due to the sand bath and clumsy condenser on top). What would you suggest for better stirring? (considering I have no access to a magnetic stirring mechanism)

Lamp oil it is.


My experience is that stirring isn't necessary. Just try and swirl the flask a little, every half hour or so.

In his book, Leonid Lerner ('len1' on this site) mentions the procedure, without mentioning stirring:

Quote:
Thus, 100 ml Shellsol D70, 12.6 g KOH, and 6.4 g magnesium powder (up to 80% can be turnings) are heated in a 250-ml conical flask, attached to a Liebig condenser, bubbler, and dropping funnel. At 150ºC, the magnesium reacts with the molten hydrated KOH, generating hydrogen and MgO. Now 1.2 g t-BuOH in 5 ml D70 are slowly added and the temperature raised to 220ºC, generating 5.6 g potassium (82% yield) in 4 hours. During the reaction the potassium is coalesced by the regeneration of alcohol and this can be completed by swirling the solids at 65ºC in a stoppered flask with 50 ml dioxan to which 0.2 g t-BuOH have been added. The initiation stage
is very sensitive to K-reactive species in the paraffin, and equivalent reactions with sodium are much slower due to the lower solubility of sodium alkoxides.


He also prepared K successfully with this method. Yet 'len1' tried high speed stirring before that and failed to obtain metal.

[Edited on 23-12-2015 by blogfast25]

KesterDraconis - 28-12-2015 at 14:20

Oddly enough, I think the lamp oil did me in on my first run. At first I thought all the bubbling and refluxing was just water and other impurities getting out, but after following woelen's instructions on how to deal with this (taking the condenser off briefly to let the water escape) it kept bubbling quite a bit. I then noticed that the temperature was staying around 185 C and going no higher.

I would attribute this to my hot plate not having a lot of power, but the plate itself was several hundred degrees celsius and the sand bath was at the required temperature (220C). Could it be that the oil was boiling at 185C , and not going any higher?

I added the tert-butanol anyway, but of course this didn't do anything. After five hours of nothing happening, and various attempts to figure out what was wrong, I simply shut it down and decided to try again tomorrow.

[Edited on 28-12-2015 by KesterDraconis]

blogfast25 - 28-12-2015 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by KesterDraconis  
Could it be that the oil was boiling at 185C , and not going any higher?



It's easy enough to check that.

KesterDraconis - 29-12-2015 at 12:16

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by KesterDraconis  
Could it be that the oil was boiling at 185C , and not going any higher?



It's easy enough to check that.


This was indeed the issue. I am now using the baby oil, and it has stayed at a steady 240C for a couple hours now. However, not much has happened. The magnesium has turned very grey, presumably due to oxidation, though I see no little potassium spheres yet.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 10-1-2016 at 16:37

Ran across this while cleaning and thought someone might be curious with the interest in long-chain alternate catalysts: 2,6-dimethyl-2-heptanol (aka dimetol).



It's a fragrance chemical, pretty inexpensive if you buy it as such. Not OTC, but easily available from Perfumer's Apprentice in US, Hermitage Oils in EU, and last I checked Perfumer's World in Thailand still shipped everywhere else.

EDIT: I see Nicodem has mentioned this in the other thread, still worth the repost I think as these sources will sell to the "little guy."

[Edited on 1-11-2016 by Etaoin Shrdlu]

blogfast25 - 10-1-2016 at 17:09

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Ran across this while cleaning and thought someone might be curious with the interest in long-chain alternate catalysts: 2,6-dimethyl-2-heptanol (aka dimetol).



It's a fragrance chemical, pretty inexpensive if you buy it as such. Not OTC, but easily available from Perfumer's Apprentice in US, Hermitage Oils in EU, and last I checked Perfumer's World in Thailand still shipped everywhere else.

EDIT: I see Nicodem has mentioned this in the other thread, still worth the repost I think as these sources will sell to the "little guy."

[Edited on 1-11-2016 by Etaoin Shrdlu]


Aka tetrahydro myrcenol.

I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I don't have it. I do have dihydro myrcenol.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 10-1-2016 at 17:29

That one looks nice too.

blogfast25 - 10-1-2016 at 18:33

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
That one looks nice too.


I'm afraid the unsaturation might metallate with K.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 10-1-2016 at 21:41

I wasn't expecting any difficulty because dissolving metal reductions leave alkenes as they are, but that's a much different solvent of course...

EDIT: This article indicates you would need a superbase for that to happen but I haven't been able to find much. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00126a074

[Edited on 1-11-2016 by Etaoin Shrdlu]

NeonPulse - 10-1-2016 at 21:50

Has anybody here had successfully made K metal using them supposed Mg fire starter blocks? The reason I ask is I have tried several times using this to no avail. Some very small amounts form at the start of the reaction-1 hour refluxing and disappear some time later. I followed woeleon pages procedure exept using mineral oil instead of THN. I had today only received my 99.9% ingots of Mg to try and these blocks feel a bit more dense than the fire starter blocks so perhaps they are magnalium instead. And after reading a majority of this thread it does look like other people have also tried these blocks without success. I feel confident that I can master this reaction in the next couple of goes.I've tried 6 times previously with the blocks and cut up Mg ribbon which was slightly oxidised with lamp oil and with mineral oil and adding catalyst all at once and staggered like most of the synthesis methods I've read suggest to do. I'm sure there fire starter blocks are the problem.

blogfast25 - 11-1-2016 at 03:19

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse  
I had today only received my 99.9% ingots of Mg to try and these blocks feel a bit more dense than the fire starter blocks so perhaps they are magnalium instead.


It's unlikely to be MgAl. Do test though: density will tell you what's what: Mg = 1.74, Al = 2.7.

NeonPulse - 15-1-2016 at 06:07

Ok so tried again to get elemental K with a half success. k was formed but it is in the fines at the bottom of the flask and I can't seem to make it into balls. Is there some trick to this? My process was as follows:
3.5g Mg metal powder made by taking a rotary burr to the ingot and the metal further ground in a coffee grinder. 7g KOH in 40ml if quality lamp oil. Ito a 100ml Erlenmeyer flask with a Liebig condenser attached and cool air fed into this.
So I heated the sand bath and got the temp to 100 c and white fumes started to come off the oil with some flashes and the hydroxide seems to fluff up.I keep the heating to 220 c And Tested liquid with a mercury thermometer, so I add the first portion of 2ml tert butanol mixed with the solvent and every 10 mins after totalling 0.8ml alcohol. The flask was swirled occasionally and left to reflux for the 4 hours. I tested some of the fine material and this definitely sparked in water so K is present. If I left it longer maybe the fines will coalesce.
the big white bits are un reacted KOH and still spark a little but that's probably just fines adhering to them. I'm not sure what I can do now since I've tried 8 times now to make K! There's an empty ampoule waiting for it in my element collection. I must be doing something wrong or this is a finicky reaction where the slightest things will alter the results. I'm going to remove the unreacted stuff, decant the solvent and put in fresh oil and heat to attempt to coalesce the fine sandy material- unless it would be a waste of time.

[Edited on 15-1-2016 by NeonPulse]

image.jpeg - 2.4MB image.jpeg - 2MB

[Edited on 15-1-2016 by NeonPulse]

blogfast25 - 15-1-2016 at 12:58

Try coalescing the K at a lower T: no more than 100 C.

MrHomeScientist - 8-2-2016 at 17:43

There's currently an eBayer selling Tetralin: http://www.ebay.com/itm/221631339997

You may recall this as the solvent Nurdrage used in his potassium synthesis, the main benefit of which is its density. It is more dense than potassium, meaning the metal produced in the reaction floats and coalesces more easily.

I purchased 600mL today, but delivery to me will take about a month according to eBay. I'll keep you all posted.

blogfast25 - 8-2-2016 at 18:02

Please do.

NeonPulse - 9-2-2016 at 23:33

I can field that question m. This supplier although slightly expensive is reputable. I had my 300ml tertralin order arrived a couple days ago. It was well packaged in a HDPE bottle and further sealed in heavy plastic bag. It sure stinks like tetralin. I've also had other orders in the past from this seller and haven't had a problem. I haven't had time to test it yet but I also got some reagent KOH and in the next week or so I should have the time to try again, and it's gotta work this time, I'm sooo close. I'll be sure to report on my next attempt. I couldn't get the K Particles to coalesce last time and got the shits and ordered the tetralin.

image.jpeg - 1.9MB

[Edited on 10-2-2016 by NeonPulse]

NeonPulse - 21-2-2016 at 00:21

OK, it has been a couple of weeks since i received the tetralin and sadly i have had no success with it. With each reaction i have used the same amount of KOH and Mg and catalyst. for the tetralin runs {3} i used the nurdrage video proportions. I have run this reaction around 15 times now and only had a dark sandy material which i suspect is fine K. no blobs. some of the reaction mixtures have reacted well with water sparking and leaving the burnt metal smell. i have tried paraffin oil of the type used as a laxative from a pharmacy-two different brands, quality clear lamp oil, a thinner paraffin- "diggers" brand from the hardware store and now tetralin. i have tried Mg from firestarter blocks and 99.9% Mg in an ingot from an Ebay seller and Mg ribbon which i had painstakingly scraped the oxide off of and cut into thin strips and squares. The Mg particles have been drill turnings from large and small bits and further refined in a coffee grinder and a fine carbide burr to shave fine fluffy powdery flakes. The Temperature of the runs has been consistently around 200/230C. The speed at which i ramp up the temperature has been around 30mins or so until i can add the alcohol. I have had a scary experience once with hydrogen popping and this scared the shit out of me, i removed the condenser to vent gasses and there was a huge pop. scared the shit out of me. 3 other times where there was Mg/KOH burning inside the flask that quickly extinguished itself
Also I have tried 3 different KOH types- some flakes that were A.R grade of which i had enough for two runs-they were quite translucent, and some visibly lower quality soap makers flakes- these were more white. Blaming my failures on this i got some high quality A.R grade KOH pellets. The T-Butanol was from IslandScents and Scentsability, Which i see elsewhere in this thread has worked for others. It has the correct melting/freezing point, smell and is what it says it is. i can't find any T-amyl alcohol at a reasonable price for a small amount else i would try it.
Im at a loss. strangely withthe tetralin the runs have turned blue. firstly after refluxing for an hour or so a brownish colour then after a couple of hours a lavender and by the end of the 3rd hour it was quite blue. strange. could it be solvated K? No metallic K though- not one bit. the KOH fizzed when the reaction was scooped into water but that's all.
I am beginning to lose patience with this. but i have invested so much time now it would be silly to quit. i want to have a success.
Another thought that could be contributing was Although the Burred off filings and some drilled bits are fresh surfaces they do seem silvery but also dull and not shiny and could be due to the heat generated from friction. of drilling/rasping them. they do go straight into a sealed bag and then the oil within 10 mins of filing them.
i note that in some of the reactions the Mg metal looks like it is getting oxidized/passivated and does not get consumed. is this effect from the sand bath heat? can you run this too hot? no signs of K were seen in these runs.
All of my runs were done in a flat bottomed erlenmeyer 100mls and 50mls for the tetralin runs all with a liebig condenser cooled with an air pump and in a sand bath. There has to be a reason it is not working for me. i have got some more MG on order from naother supplier
Oh and i also made an attempt using Calcium metal shaving/drill turnings and with no success. they possibly got too oxidised before i got them in the mineral oil due to the humidity of where i live but most of them were shiny still. did a run of four hours. i think i used 2.5g Ca metal in 40ml oil. i wrote down the amount of KOH and other temperature details/observations i used but i cannot find the page right now.it was just like a normal run with the Mg. There was nothing that stood out i can remember but unlike when the Mg gets to around 100C there is white fumes that fill the vessel but there was none with calcium.
The pictures are from a tetralin run and there are two from the calcium run.
Any pointers? i am highly annoyed at this process but there has to be a solution. Maybe attempting to dry the KOH in an oven or something or using I2 to "activate" the Mg. whatever.

http://illumina-chemie.de/darstellung-von-metallischem-kaliu...
so i just translated this page and saw that the MG metal has been added in two portions- i am yet to try this approach. Has anybody else has success using this method?

[Edited on 21-2-2016 by NeonPulse]

tetralin3.JPG - 382kB tetralin1.JPG - 291kB calcium metal 01.JPG - 442kB Calcium metal02.JPG - 496kB

[Edited on 21-2-2016 by NeonPulse]

blogfast25 - 21-2-2016 at 07:11

@NeonPulse:

Very frustrating, indeed. I can't see what you're doing wrong.

Do try this (works for me): add all the alcohol right from the start with the other ingredients, then start heating. Slowly at first until you have the hydrogen surge, then take it to BP (200 - 220 C).

NEVER 'vent': all hydrogen escapes through the top of the refluxer. Oxygen is the enemy here!

Direct attempt to produce a K/Na alloy

wg48 - 25-2-2016 at 18:50

I wanted to try the low temperature reduction of hydroxide with magnesium using the catalyst method. But did not have the catalyst so I decided to try a direct reduction. I used a eutectic of 50:50 by mass of KOH and NaOH so I could use a temperature of about 170C and hopefully produce a room temperature molten alloy of K/Na. The idea was that would simply the separation from the unwanted reaction products. I know the alloy is very reactive.

An initial experiment using an open stainless steel (SS) dish indicated the magnesium does react with the molten eutectic and not too violently if added in small additions.

I used the apparatus shown below. Consisting of a small SS pot with a lid. An aluminium tube supplied a flow of butane from a small butane torch to provide an inert blanket to prevent oxidation of the K/Na. The escaping butane was ignited and formed a flame as seen in the pic. The magnesium powder was dropped through the flame untill no more reaction occurred as indicated by the flame flarring up. The apparatus was then left to cool with the butane following. The contents was them flooded with mineral oil.

On inspection of the cooled contents of the pot it contained an off white foamed hard solid but no alkali metal was visible. The oil was removed and water was added. No fizzing but the water boiled at the surface of the solid but no vapour reached the surface. Eventually the solid dissolved in the water and white precipitate formed.

I suspect that the butane flame drew in air past the lid that burnt any formed alkali metal.

An other attempt will need a better apparatus with a sealed lid and a better method of adding the magnesium. Probably magnesium ribbon would be ideal.

At best the yield is likely to be in the 25% percent range because the magnesium oxide/hydroxide formed in the reaction thickens /solidifies with K/Na hydroxide preventing reaction with the magnesium.

WP_20160218_19_21_49_Pro.jpg - 1.4MB

blogfast25 - 26-2-2016 at 10:00

Interesting experiment.

That Mg reduces KOH/NaOh we also know from various thermite style attempts and that:

KOH + Mg ===> K + MgO +1/2 H2

...has a ΔH<sup>0</sup> = - 176 kJ/mol.

Bear also in mind that your NaOH/KOH contains some water, as all grades of KOH do.

I think you'll need a slightly better reactor and preferably using argon:

K reactor.png - 4kB

Finally!

NeonPulse - 27-2-2016 at 23:04

Well it was about goddamn time! Finally I can report a success! The reaction is cooking away as I type but it is looking good! There are many small balls of K floating atop the reaction mixture finally! There are three things I have done different. After reviewing the verschemie K preparation I decided to try the following:
1. The Mg was added in two portions. 1.5g firstly and After the initial gassing off had settled the remaining 2.5g were added. Temp was 180c at this point.
2. The catalyst was added all at once just after the 2nd Mg portion. I have tried this approach before but with no success.
3. The grade of Mg: I got out my reciprocating saw with the metal cutting blade put the ingot in the vise and had a bag around it to collect the metal. Depending how hard I pressed on the saw I got a mixture of fine and coarser particles. I had not ever done it this way. There was a mixture of fine powder and coarser powder but still finer than I had used previously. I also used the diggers brand parrafin oil. It's looking good after around 15 attempts I very nearly gave up. I am going to try this approach with tetralin as the solvent in the near future. Probably a small batch though. One step closer.

image.jpeg - 2.5MB image.jpeg - 1.8MB

[Edited on 28-2-2016 by NeonPulse]

elementcollector1 - 28-2-2016 at 06:30

How 'fresh' was the Mg you were using before? Typically, it's recommended that one start with freshly cut Mg so that it remains 'activated'.

Glad to see you succeeded!

blogfast25 - 28-2-2016 at 06:51

@NeonPulse:

Glad to hear it!

MrHomeScientist - 28-2-2016 at 17:21

Well I got my tetralin in the mail and attempted the reaction today, but my hotplate never got over 160C for some reason and no reaction occurred. Some bubbling did happen near 100C, which was undoubtedly water escaping.

Mostly I wanted to report my conclusion that tetralin is NOT something I want to work with without a fume hood. I did the reaction outside with a big fan blowing across the apparatus, but the smell of tetralin is very strong and pungent. I would do some work, walk to fresh air, breathe for a minute, then return and repeat, but even so I felt light headed and somewhat nauseous during setup and breakdown. Resting and plenty of water is helping. I'm going to put the breaks on this reaction for now until I get a working fume hood. This stuff just makes me too uncomfortable being around unprotected. I've sealed the bottle of tetralin in a bucket for now.

blogfast25 - 28-2-2016 at 18:04

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Well I got my tetralin in the mail and attempted the reaction today, but my hotplate never got over 160C for some reason and no reaction occurred. Some bubbling did happen near 100C, which was undoubtedly water escaping.

Mostly I wanted to report my conclusion that tetralin is NOT something I want to work with without a fume hood. I did the reaction outside with a big fan blowing across the apparatus, but the smell of tetralin is very strong and pungent. I would do some work, walk to fresh air, breathe for a minute, then return and repeat, but even so I felt light headed and somewhat nauseous during setup and breakdown.


160 C is far too low. It takes at least 1 to 1 1/2 hour to complete reaction at 200+ C, then some more to coalesce the K.

Hood or not, you have to use an effective air-cooled refluxer. You'll lose the catalyst if you don't anyway.

With a decent refluxer you won't even get a whiff of the solvent, I guarantee you that.

[Edited on 29-2-2016 by blogfast25]

Tdep - 29-2-2016 at 04:19

Yeah I second blogfast, I run a water cooled condenser (at least I think I ran water through it..? I might have just had the condenser there, but fairly sure I ran water with no issues) and tetralin and there's no smell at all, let alone an unpleasant one.

MrHomeScientist - 29-2-2016 at 06:21

Well sure, I didn't expect anything to happen at 160C. Mainly I wanted to report on the tetralin business. My setup is as it was before, with a 100mL round bottom flask connected to a Liebig condenser open to the air (no water, and no pumping air). This worked fine in my original experiments.

The problem isn't during reflux. I smelled nothing at all during the run. The problem is in setup and break down, when open bottles and apparatus release fumes all over the place. That's unavoidable.

blogfast25 - 29-2-2016 at 07:50

Understood.

NeonPulse - 1-3-2016 at 01:09

I agree that the tetralin reeks but you can't smell it until you break open the vessel for cleanup.
It is pretty disgusting smelling stuff and suspected to cause cancer. Anyways another successful reaction this time with tetralin. I followed nurdrage's procedure but adding the Mg in two portions 1g and 1.4 g after the initial hydrogen evolution at around 160c. Also I added the t- butanol in one gulp using excess totalling 1.3ml. Checking the reaction after 1.5 hours I could clearly see the telltale shine if floating K. Some large blobs which had joined into one large sphere. I'm cooling it as I type and will weigh it and report. It seems like the adding the Mg in portions after the gasses slow evolution is a winner. I only wish I translated that page earlier and save the trouble I had.

The first reaction in paraffin I did actually grew a whole lot of tiny spheres which were difficult to collect so not many larger bits were collected and they would not coalesce either.

image.jpeg - 2.3MBimage.jpeg - 2MB

Pok - 1-3-2016 at 02:34

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse  
It seems like the adding the Mg in portions after the gasses slow evolution is a winner.

I don't think that this is the key. There are many examples which add the Mg in one portion at the beginning and are equally successful. I made it several times in both variations and the success was absolutely independent of this procedure. This wasn't the only difference to your unsuccessful tries. You also made the Mg powder in a different way.

Most problems seem to arise from "inactive" Mg powder. I have done it with several Mg sources. New and shiny always works, but older Mg powder never worked. Also, newly bought Mg powder always worked after I bought it and a few months later it never worked again with that powder (stored in a plastic bag where air and humidity are not fully excluded). Up to now, nobody seems to have managed it to "activate" oxidized Mg so that it is suitable for this reaction. Iodine doesn't seem to work. It's not a good solution if one has to use newly bought / fresh Mg powder or file it off a block by oneself. I think it would be very useful to find a way how to regenerate old Mg powder in a comfortable way.

MrHomeScientist - 1-3-2016 at 06:19

That's great work NeonPulse, and confirms my suspicions about my own reaction conditions. I used lamp oil and got potassium sand, but was never able to coalesce during the reaction. The tetralin helps by allowing the K to float and come together much easier. I really can't wait to get this done. Did you use a fume hood when working with your tetralin? If not how did you minimize fume exposure?

blogfast25 - 1-3-2016 at 06:47

MrHomeScience:

IIRW, with tetralin 'nurdrage' got the whole job done (coalescence included) in about an hour, so it will be very interesting to see how it works out for you.

NeonPulse - 6-3-2016 at 15:32

So I did another test last night and found the fineness and shine of the Mg is really the key factor in my successes. I did a run using 50 ml lamp oil this time with 3.5g Mg 7g KOH and 1.2 ml tert butanol. Everything was added at the start and I let this run go for 6 hours. There was quite a lot of small to medium spheres sitting atop the reaction mixture by the end and I'm quite pleased with the results. I was also wondering if anybody has attempted to recover the used tetralin before? It's kind of expensive an if possible I'd like to recover it for further use. I have around 100 ml and was thinking about running it through a fine filter and dropping the temp to see if the un used catalyst will solidify for removal. Failing that I will just heat it to drive the alcohol off first and distill the tetralin that's left.

image.jpeg - 2.3MB image.jpeg - 2.2MB

image.jpeg - 2.7MB

blogfast25 - 6-3-2016 at 17:53

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse  
So I did another test last night and found the fineness and shine of the Mg is really the key factor in my successes. I did a run using 50 ml lamp oil this time with 3.5g Mg 7g KOH and 1.2 ml tert butanol. Everything was added at the start and I let this run go for 6 hours. There was quite a lot of small to medium spheres sitting atop the reaction mixture by the end and I'm quite pleased with the results. I was also wondering if anybody has attempted to recover the used tetralin before? It's kind of expensive an if possible I'd like to recover it for further use. I have around 100 ml and was thinking about running it through a fine filter and dropping the temp to see if the un used catalyst will solidify for removal. Failing that I will just heat it to drive the alcohol off first and distill the tetralin that's left.





It's believed the catalyst is post-reaction present as K alkoxide (see proposed reaction mechanism, higher up).

I believe filtering after chilling might very well work. Considering the cost of tetralin, its worth trying.

There's some work done by me on recycling, reported higher up in the thread.


[Edited on 7-3-2016 by blogfast25]

NeonPulse - 20-3-2016 at 15:18

I wouldn't say I've discovered anything really new but I found that trying to coalesce all the small spheres of K in a beaker of oil is not easy. They seem to not want to join. So after thinking a bit about it a good approach is to put the K balls in a test tube with oil and heat. I pushed the balls together as much as possible but some were still stubbornly refusing to join so I waited to the oil was a bit cooler and pressed the still soft spheres together and re heated the tube and viola! The potassium welded itself together in a nice little ball.

image.jpeg - 1.2MB

Dan Vizine - 22-12-2016 at 16:51


I think that some of the molten potassium handling techniques that I use may help.

Your molten metal won't coalesce because it's dirty.

To make my brilliant Na or K ampoules, I pre-process the metals for best results. My first step is to melt the metal in toluene or xylene in a what is essentially a large test tube. I get a mixture of molten metal and oxidation crud. Then I push a metal rod, fitted with several layers of stiff stainless steel screen, through this. The brilliant looking metal bubbles up through the screens. Being totally clean, it readily coalesces when I set the liquid inside rapidly spinning by swirling the tube. Leave the rod in place during cooling. Pull up and remove metal from rod.

The screens are a very close fit to the tube. Done using a belt sander on the very stiff screens.


a.jpg - 305kB B.jpg - 101kB



[Edited on 23-12-2016 by Dan Vizine]

Dan Vizine - 24-12-2016 at 10:32

I can't seem to edit my last entry, so let me add this here instead.

The RHS picture may seem a little confusing due to shadows. The darker part, running down the apparent axis of the tube, is just a shadow of the tube on the wall behind it. This procedure really is as simple as just pushing a screen through the molten metal.

And, as someone has noted, higher viscosity liquids are not desirable.

Obviously, the re-solidified metal just slides off the pusher rod.

If your starting metal is visually "clean" (no particulates), but is just a bit dull looking, this is all it takes to inhibit coalescence. In this case, though, the remedy is often even easier than filtering it. You simply add one drop of DRY alcohol to the metal (in toluene, xylene) and the surfaces will brighten up. Repeat if the metal still isn't bright. The alcohol can be 2-PrOH or EtOH). Most of the product alkoxide sloughs off the metal surfaces and sinks to the bottom of the tube as green-gray flocculent material.

[Edited on 25-12-2016 by Dan Vizine]

Dan Vizine - 28-12-2016 at 10:48

In case any of you do use the alcohol method of cleaning sodium or potassium there is a minor downside that I forgot to mention. You don't find details like this in the literature, at least I didn't, despite the fact that the alcohol cleaning trick has been known forever.

Obviously, not all of the alkoxide separates from the metal. There will be some left, but you can't see it. It's still enough to change the behavior of the molten metal toward dry, clean glass. The molten metal will now wet glass due to the powerful fluxing abilities of the alkoxide. It forms a sodium (or potassium) mirror.

Bezaleel - 29-12-2016 at 06:41

Quote: Originally posted by Dan Vizine  
(...)
If your starting metal is visually "clean" (no particulates), but is just a bit dull looking, this is all it takes to inhibit coalescence. In this case, though, the remedy is often even easier than filtering it. You simply add one drop of DRY alcohol to the metal (in toluene, xylene) and the surfaces will brighten up. Repeat if the metal still isn't bright. The alcohol can be 2-PrOH or EtOH). Most of the product alkoxide sloughs off the metal surfaces and sinks to the bottom of the tube as green-gray flocculent material.
[Edited on 25-12-2016 by Dan Vizine]

Quote: Originally posted by Dan Vizine  
(...)
Obviously, not all of the alkoxide separates from the metal. There will be some left, but you can't see it. It's still enough to change the behavior of the molten metal toward dry, clean glass. The molten metal will now wet glass due to the powerful fluxing abilities of the alkoxide. It forms a sodium (or potassium) mirror.

Thanks so much for posting this.

And would repeating the method with the long tube help the potassium get clean enough to make the balls look brilliant? Or is the dry alcohol method the only method you know of?

Texium - 29-12-2016 at 21:22

I made an attempt at the reaction for the first time yesterday. Didn't work at all though because I couldn't get the sand bath hot enough. I think the old hotplate I was using is finally over the hill.

https://texium.wordpress.com/2016/12/29/failed-attempt-at-po...



IMG_2815.JPG - 1002kB

Dan Vizine - 30-12-2016 at 13:08

[/rquote]

And would repeating the method with the long tube help the potassium get clean enough to make the balls look brilliant? Or is the dry alcohol method the only method you know of?
[/rquote]

This depends on your goal. My goal is to make shiny metal samples without solvent.

I've never tried to make brilliant metal in any atmosphere except a vacuum. You can get nice silvery metal in solvents, but it dulls from shiny silver to "flat" silver kinda' quickly. Potassium, in my hands, always acquires a pale purple tint in solvents after some period of time.

I take this "flat" silvery metal, put it in a tube, remelt in under vacuum, filter through stainless steel wool and collect in another tube which is sealed under a vacuum. Here's a half pound potassium ampoule made this way:

7) half pound of Potassium.jpg - 43kB

[Edited on 30-12-2016 by Dan Vizine]

Ba(ClO3)2 - 30-12-2016 at 22:51

I've tried making potassium several times now with no success what so ever. If someone could possibly give me some advice or tips, it would be greatly appreciated:). Here's a description of my latest attempt:

The magnesium was activated by leaving it to stand in a beaker of 5% acetic acid for about 20 seconds. This seemed to be effective at removing the oxide coating on the magnesium.

To a 500ml round-bottom flask, was added 3.5g of magnesium turnings and 7.3g of 95% potassium hydroxide flakes. Around 60ml of kerosene was then added in to act as the solvent. As a heating source, I used an oil bath (spent engine oil instead of cooking oil) heated by a hot plate. A liebig condenser, circulated with water and loosely sealed at the top with Al foil was then attached to the flask. The heat was set to maximum and pretty soon the kerosene began to reflux steadily in the flask. After 15 minutes of reflux, I added in 1.5ml of tert-butanol though the condenser.

After around 20 more minutes of reflux, another 1.5ml of alcohol were added. The mixture was refluxed for around 5 hours. Upon examining the contents of the flask, I found no potassium what so ever and the reaction mixture appeared almost completely unchanged. After removing the kerosene, a bit of water was added to the mixture resulting in no effect at all, confirming the complete absence of potassium:(.

It definitely got hot enough, the oil must have been well over 200 C.

Is there anything obviously wrong?

Tsjerk - 30-12-2016 at 23:06

Maybe too much water in your KOH, next time you can evaporate a part of your kerosine before adding magnesium and t-butyl alcohol to get rid of the water.

Ba(ClO3)2 - 30-12-2016 at 23:25

Ok, I'll be sure to try that out next time. My KOH is 95% and I'm not sure if the residual 5% is water or some other junk, but hopefully as long as it is dry that shouldn't matter.

Thanks for the feedback:)

Tsjerk - 31-12-2016 at 01:50

KOH is quite often labelled as 95 or 99 % referring to everything but the water, which is usually 15%.

Dan Vizine - 31-12-2016 at 07:30

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Maybe too much water in your KOH, next time you can evaporate a part of your kerosine before adding magnesium and t-butyl alcohol to get rid of the water.


Ba(ClO3)2, did you understand the comment as written? What he meant was to distill a part of your solvent away first. Water will leave with this cut, due to its much lower bp.

The main solid impurity in this is K2CO3 from inevitable CO2 absorption from the air. And, of course, you can count on at least the 15% water that Tsjerk suggested.

Ba(ClO3)2 - 31-12-2016 at 11:11

Ah right, I see. Thanks Tsjerk:). I'll try doing as you suggested next time. Boil off some of the kerosene and maybe even fuse the KOH before I use it.

Dan Vizine - 31-12-2016 at 15:09

If you fuse it, before you use it, put it into a plastic sandwich bag. A thicker one if you have it. Then wrap with some additional bags, or similar, and try to pulverize it as best you can.

Boiling off a bit of solvent, with the KOH added, is still a good practice for a couple of reasons.

Ba(ClO3)2 - 31-12-2016 at 18:36

Cool, looks like I'm back on track again. Thanks for your help.

AJKOER - 22-5-2017 at 14:38

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
I did not read all about this topic, but just wanted to comment that the use of isopropanol is most likely futile. Metal alkoxides containing alpha-hydrogens are generally not stable up to 200 °C. They tend to decompose via beta-hydride elimination reactions, the rate at which they do so highly depends on the what metal alkoxide they are. I would expect potassium isopropoxide is not stable at the required conditions. The acetone formed in the decomposition is most likely to blame for the brown-red coloured crap formed via self condensation. On the other hand, t-BuOK is commonly used as a stable alkoxide at fairly high temperatures, so it might actually be long living at 200 °C as well. Also, tert-butoxides should be much more soluble in paraffins, which is another reason to stick to tert-butanol or higher homologues. The formation of t-BuOK should be fairly rapid at the given conditions, especially if Mg is finely divided and/or activated, so I don't think most of t-BuOH escapes, particularly if stirring is used or heating up is slow.

As to how this redox works, I have no good idea. I don't see how a "2 t-BuOK + Mg <=> (t-BuO)2Mg + 2 K" reaction could ever be favoured on the right side. Though at least the other part of the cycle, "(t-BuO)2Mg + KOH <=> 2 t-BuOK + Mg(OH)2" makes sense direction-wise. Quite weird. Anyhow, I would guess the most important factor is the activation of the Mg metalic surface and the quality&mesh of the metal.


Here is a new idea, possibly wrong, as to the reaction mechanism:

The first necessary step is the formation of t-BuOK.

Next an unrelated reaction is the creation of a metal-air battery (Mg/O2) in an appropriate electrolyte. See discussion at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&... . To quote Wikipedia on the Magnesium battery (link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_battery):

"Electrolyte solution have been also obtained by addition of Lewis acids, especially aluminium trichloride, to magnesium compounds such as Grignard reagents, amides, phenolates, alkoxides, thiolates or magnesium chloride, usually in THF solvent."

I would also note that boiling facilitates mixing with air.

Lastly:

K+ + e- → K

That is, the electrolyte employed here is not stable and is broken down.

In summary, my proposed route argues that magnesium is indirectly responsible for the formation of potassium.

Comments welcomed.

[Edited on 23-5-2017 by AJKOER]

jimmyboy - 23-5-2017 at 00:34

you should be able to extract the potassium from your magnesium reduction reaction with dioxane (react and distill ethylene glycol with sulfuric)
.. it works for sodium no problem just raise the temp to 100degC and use a strong stirbar

clearly_not_atara - 23-5-2017 at 00:58

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
[incomprehensible]

Are you suggesting that oxygen reduces potassium? This seems highly unlikely. In terms of a potential gradient, O2 > Mg > K, most likely. But MgO has a favorable lattice energy.

It seems that first KOH must be reduced to K2O, releasing hydrogen (2 KOH + Mg >> H2 + K2O + MgO), and then the reaction K2O + Mg >> 2K + MgO is thermally favorable, possibly because K2O has a less favorable crystal geometry than MgO, owing to too many large K+ ions.

MrHomeScientist - 23-5-2017 at 06:15

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
I would also note that boiling facilitates mixing with air.

No. It doesn't. This is a system in reflux; once the solvent begins to boil the only thing in the head space in solvent vapor. Where would the air come from?

Joker needs some sort of title to warn newcomers of his antics.

j_sum1 - 23-5-2017 at 14:42

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
I would also note that boiling facilitates mixing with air.

No. It doesn't. This is a system in reflux; once the solvent begins to boil the only thing in the head space in solvent vapor. Where would the air come from?

Joker needs some sort of title to warn newcomers of his antics.


I've been here for... how long?? And I never noticed the anagram of his name.
i wonder how much of importance I have missed as well.

AJKOER - 23-5-2017 at 17:03

In my defense, what we have here, in my opinion, is not a classic metal/O2 battery, but a related lesser known rendition with (well, at least prior to revision, see Thesis link below) the same anodic half reaction cited in the Al/O2 battery.

For those interested, one of my favorite thesis is from 2008, "Alkaline dissolution of aluminum: surface chemistry and subsurface interfacial phenomena", by Saikat Adhikari, link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&...

I believe a similar electrochemical reaction scheme is occuring with Magnesium. Some extracts of interest for the brave, to quote:

"In addition to being a primary corrosion process, dissolution behavior of aluminum and its alloys in alkaline solutions is of considerable interest because it is the anode reaction in aluminum-air batteries.[4] ......The anodic half-reaction at the Al electrode is

Al + 4 OH − → Al (OH)4− + 3 e− (1.1)

which exhibits an electrode potential of -2.35 V in alkaline solutions(vs. NHE).

"2 Al + 6 H2O → 2 Al (OH)3 + 3 H2 (1.2)"

....."dissolution of aluminum in alkaline solutions at open-circuit also leads extremely high rates of H-absorption into the metal, [9-14] ".....

"Another study of the dissolution of aluminum in aqueous solutions by Perrault revealed that the open circuit potential of aluminum in strongly alkaline solutions corresponds closely to the Nernst potential for oxidation of aluminum hydride to aluminate ions [25]

AlH3 + 7 OH− (aq) → Al (OH)4− + 3 H2O ( aq ) + 6 e− (1.3)

This suggests a role of surface aluminum hydride as a reaction intermediate in the dissolution process. Additional evidence for the presence of aluminum hydride was provided by Despic and co-workers.[26, 27] They found that aluminum hydride formation was one of the major processes apart from aluminum dissolution and hydrogen evolution, during the cathodic polarization of aluminum. Titanium corrosion in alkaline solutions is also thought to proceed through a hydride mediated mechanism.[28-30] "

"He found that the open-circuit potential in strongly alkaline media was determined by the equilibrium of the reaction

AlH3 + 7 OH− (aq) → Al (OH )4- + 3 H2O ( aq ) + 6 e− (3.7)

He obtained a standard chemical potential of 25 kcal/mol for AlH3 from his data, which was in reasonable agreement with prior thermochemical calculations done by Sinke et al who obtained a value of 11.1 kcal/mol for the chemical potential.[80] ...."

"The anodic reaction 3.7 is accompanied by the cathodic reduction of water to form hydrogen

H2O + e- → OH- + H (3.8)

and the reaction of hydrogen with aluminum to from hydride

Al + 3 H → AlH3 (3.9)"

So, a bit technical but related half cell reactions I would guess for the likes of Magnesium.
-------------------------

One should accept that if some electric current is generated in situ, it is possible for electrons to be solvated in an appropriate organic medium. This could lead to the decomposition of associated organics, resulting in the release of Potassium. Note, even in aqueous settings, long ago there are reports of unexplained reactions of various salts with Mg metal, including converting nitrate into nitrite and finally ammonia (see, for example, p. 314 at "Chemical News and Journal of Physical Science, Volumes 87-88, 1903, p. 312-316, link: https://books.google.com/books?id=jvjmAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA... ).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Edit] Here is an interesting article citing a temperature and Magnesium alloy presence associated with hydride formation: "absorption of hydrogen by magnesium based alloys", in METAL 2014, link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&...

This short discussion on preparing the Mg for interaction with H2 may be of value: https://books.google.com/books?id=NR3OxpSiA60C&pg=PA491&...

[Edited on 24-5-2017 by AJKOER]

[Edited on 24-5-2017 by AJKOER]

Dan Vizine - 24-5-2017 at 07:32

Quote: Originally posted by Bezaleel  
Quote: Originally posted by Dan Vizine  
(...)
If your starting metal is visually "clean" (no particulates), but is just a bit dull looking, this is all it takes to inhibit coalescence. In this case, though, the remedy is often even easier than filtering it. You simply add one drop of DRY alcohol to the metal (in toluene, xylene) and the surfaces will brighten up. Repeat if the metal still isn't bright. The alcohol can be 2-PrOH or EtOH). Most of the product alkoxide sloughs off the metal surfaces and sinks to the bottom of the tube as green-gray flocculent material.
[Edited on 25-12-2016 by Dan Vizine]

Quote: Originally posted by Dan Vizine  
(...)
Obviously, not all of the alkoxide separates from the metal. There will be some left, but you can't see it. It's still enough to change the behavior of the molten metal toward dry, clean glass. The molten metal will now wet glass due to the powerful fluxing abilities of the alkoxide. It forms a sodium (or potassium) mirror.

Thanks so much for posting this.

And would repeating the method with the long tube help the potassium get clean enough to make the balls look brilliant? Or is the dry alcohol method the only method you know of?


I apologize for not seeing this earlier. The screen method can be very effective at giving you shiny surfaces. As the screens push through the molten metal, depending upon how clean or dirty it is, the mesh may start to fill up. I've never had it fill up completely. But as it fills, the filtration becomes finer, and the retention of impurities even becomes better. The only thing that comes through the mesh seems to be clean metal in all cases.

Since it sounds like you are interested in this let me add a few additional details. The outer edges of the screen are slightly bent so that they make a tangential approach to the glass walls instead of coming in at a straight 90° angle. This makes it easier to let the screens slide over the walls, which you want if you're going to have a good seal. I also put more than one screen on the end of the rod. Two seems to be nice. And of course you have the variable of mesh size to play with. The mesh on this particular screen is a little finer than the stuff you might find in a screen door. It's much heavier though, and it's stainless steel. That's primarily because that's what I had around. Steel screen would work just fine.

My primary reason for mentioning the alcohol method was because it provides a method that doesn't require the construction of any ancillary pieces. And of course, as I implied, it's really only good if the metal is clean through and through and simply has a slight oxide coat.

AJKOER - 25-5-2017 at 09:13

Found some support suggesting that the cathodic reaction I detailed previously above proceeds per the Aluminum path cited above with Magnesium, namely:

H2O + e- → OH- + .H

along with the corresponding reaction of the created monatomic hydrogen radical with Magnesium to form a hydride:

Mg + 2 .H → MgH2

My support is from a reported observation published long ago from "Chemical News and Journal of Physical Science, Volumes 87-88, p. 312, link: https://books.google.com/books?id=jvjmAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA... , to quote:

"Solutions of the chlorides of barium, strontium, and calcium were acted upon but feebly by magnesium, but ammonium chloride solution was attacked at a lively rate. "

Also, on page 314, to quote:

"It is especially interesting to note that the alcohol solution IS much more vigorous in its action on magnesium than is pure water. The urea solution is relatively vigorously attacked, though, as has been stated, ammonia is also formed in this case."

In my opinion, with respect to the above observation of the reaction between Mg metal and aqueous NH4Cl, it is consistent with the reaction of aqueous NH4+ with e-, creating the hydrogen atom radical:

NH4+ + e- = NH3 + .H

where the above reaction could be viewed as flowing from the better known reaction:

H+ + e- = .H

as upon adding NH3 to both sides of the above: NH3 + H+ (= NH4+) + e- = NH3 + .H as claimed above. Another way of viewing this is that NH4+ is a very weak acid:

NH4+ = NH3 + H+ (see https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&... )

So, upon adding e- to each side:

NH4+ + e- = NH3 + (H+ + e-) = NH3 + .H

as required. In my opinion, the above reaction could provide an added avenue for the creation the monoatomic hydrogen radical that, especially in near neutral water as per the reported experimental observation above, could enhance the reaction rate.

With respect to the observation of increased reactivity with alcohol over water, this supports the idea of an anodic half cell reaction (likely consuming MgH2) forming solvated electrons, as ethanol is a cited preferred medium over water. Further, the chemical breakdown of Urea to NH3 supports a possible underlying electron transfer mechanism (like via solvated electrons).

Also note, the cited Magnesium employed in the reference above is said to contain a small amount of a transition metal (Iron) and Aluminum oxide. Per a source (page 127 of a Phd thesis by Anna Grzech, "Hydrogen Storage in Porous Materials and Magnesium Hydrides", available online as a 17.1MB pdf) to quote:

"some of the transition metals [13], transition metal oxides [14,15] or hydrides, transition metal halides (NbF5, TiF3, FeF3)[16-18] are widely investigated as additives. These are believed to act as a catalyst for the chemisorption of hydrogen and transport into the magnesium phase. [2] Among of these TiF3 additive appears to be a particularly effective catalyst. [10,19,20] "

Abstract of the cited reference [13] "It has been revealed that ball-milling of MgH2 powders with small amounts of selected 3d-transition metals M such as Ti, Nb, … or oxides of 3d-metals (e.g. Cr2O3) leads to marked improvements of the hydrogen absorption/desorption kinetics"

So, I would expect that select transition metals (or their oxide) impurities, or present as alloys, could increase reaction rate.

[Edited on 25-5-2017 by AJKOER]

[Edited on 25-5-2017 by AJKOER]

symboom - 26-6-2017 at 08:18

I wish I knew russian tgere so much I miss just because the some videos are in another language

Great repurposing I would have thrown away my co2 canister
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5JdPQucTjjg

[Edited on 26-6-2017 by symboom]

NeonPulse - 5-7-2017 at 17:17

So from what I can gather he heats KOH strongly to get rid of some water then adds Al powder and finally distilled off the K metal? I know it is possible to make Cs metal via distillation with CsCl and Ca metal, do you think the same is possible to make K using KCl and Ca metal in a high temp distillation? Has anyone tried this. I got the idea after watching a Cody's lab video where he attempted making K but only got NaK due to using sodium metal in the prep. He tried with Mg metal but got no yield.
So maybe Ca metal will work. Any thoughts?

ave369 - 13-7-2017 at 12:23

Quote: Originally posted by symboom  
I wish I knew russian tgere so much I miss just because the some videos are in another language


I know Russian and can translate the video. The author of the video blocked adding translated subtitles to his video, but I'll write the transcript here.

0.00 - 0.11
Hello everyone, you are watching FireTV and today we'll make one of the most active metals, potassium. By the way, you can also make sodium this way, the technology is exactly the same.
0.12 - 0.20
I've tried to make this metal at home many times, and at last I was successful. Let's start with the technology.
0.21 - 0.37
To make potassium, you need potassium hydroxide. To make sodium, you need sodium hydroxide, respectively. By the way, drain cleaner (referring to the most common Russian brand, KROT) is essentially sodium hydroxide, and someday I'll try to make sodium from it. If you melt alkali and add aluminium to it, we'll get aluminate, hydrogen gas and alkali metal we want.
0.38 - 1.07
If you heat the mixture well enough, the metal will start to evaporate, and ultimately condense in a colder spot. The schematic design of the apparatus is very simple, it has an iron retort and a tube. But in reality, it is hard to make this work right. The mixture has to be heated to a very high temperature, and the potassium or sodium vapors condense very fast, so the tube has to be short and quite wide. to ensure that the metal drops flow down it easily.
1.08 - 1.47
Basically, you have a lot of conditions to meet. First, I tried these cylinders from pneumatic crackers, but failed. Most likely, the tube was too long. So I decided to use a smaller cylinder used in air guns. You have to drill the entry hole of the cylinder as wide as you can. I did this in several stages using several drill bits, until I had a 6 mm diameter aperture. One needs to connect a tube to this cylinder; I happen to have copper tubing of 6 mm outer diameter. It fits snugly in the aperture, and no additional sealing is needed.
1.48 - 2.25
I don't have any tools to bend copper tubing, so I have to improvise. A polypropylene part will help me bend the tube without breaking it. I attach one end of the tube and use the cylinder as leverage. It doesn't look very nice, but still better than using pliers. Now I have to cut the pipe in a way to make the bend as close to the cylinder neck as possible. It is very important. I use a sharpie to mark the depth of the cylinder neck aperture on the tubing. After cutting, one needs to smoothen the edges of the pipe using a file and a drill bit for the inside part.
2.26 - 2.46
Everything fits, but I'm just trying it together, and do not force the pipe deep into the cylinder neck. Now I take 10 grams of alkali. Well, well, it's goggle time! Alkali isn't a thing to be trifled with! Once you lose an eye, you can't get yourself a replacement. One has to grind the alkali, to make it more convenient to put it inside the cylinder.

2.47 - 3.09
I grind it in a plastic bag using a plastic pipe to crush the pieces. I don't have a funnel that little, so I'll make a paper one. You have to push ground alkali down there, it becomes moist and sticky amazingly fast. Alkali is very hygroscopic, so we'll have to dry it real hot first.

3.10-4.12
You need an oven to heat it well enough. I'll be using this tin can oven you may have already seen in the release about melting aluminium and alloying it with magnesium. If you want to see that release, see the link in the description. To attach the cylinder inside the oven, I'll drill a 7 mm aperture in the oven and insert the cylinder neck there, for it to sit sloped there. I'll use my favourite Chinese gas torch for heating, this torch can be bought really cheap on Aliexpress and save some money with (some stoopid Aliexpress service advertisement which lasts until 4.12).

4.13-4.28
You have to be careful when heating that cylinder. The alkali inside really bubbles and boils. It has a lot of water, and you can see how much steam exits the cylinder. The steam is corrosive, so open all windows. Wow, this burst is just like back in the days of high school chemistry lessons!

4.29-5.05
When the steam stops, turn off heating and wait until the oven cools down. While it cools, I'll weigh some aluminium powder. I'll use three and a half grams, accuracy isn't very important here, just make sure to stick to the approximate proportion. I'll put the powder inside; while the alkali is still hot, it doesn't exhibit much hygroscopy. It's already solid, so the reaction does not start so far. Very convenient. Now we attach the copper pipe. The cylinder is hot so I'm wearing thick gloves. I put it back into the oven.

5.06-5.50
I put a test tube on the receiving end of the copper nose and prop up the test tube with a chunk of wood. Let's burn the torch now. I'm using small intensity fire, to reach the melting point slowly. Otherwise it can burst even more vigorously than before. As I heat the cylinder, more steam condenses on the walls of the test tube. It means the alkali wasn't dry enough. I'll remove the test tube for a time, I don't want my potassium to get into a wet container. Five minutes later I replace the test tube, and now we can crank the fire up!

5.51-6.24
We still see some white mist on the walls of the test tube. Looks like it's some potassium vapors that oxidize in air and condense as potassium peroxides. Ah, the first drop! Molten potassium starts to drip from the copper tubing, we can see its metallic glitter! Potassium does not catch fire because hydrogen exits the copper pipe as well and creates some inert atmosphere. When the potassium stops emerging, I turn the torch off and remove the test tube.

6.25- 7.06
Pay attention to the burning potassium bits on the copper tubing! I close the test tube with a glove to prevent the main yield from catching fire as well and hold it shut until it's cool. When the test tube cools, I pour some gasoline inside, gasoline prevents potassium from being attacked by air. Because of potassium peroxide traces, the gasoline becomes yellow. Maybe it becomes yellow for some other reason, I don't know. Maybe the gasoline itself is foul. Now I use a plastic spoon to remove the pieces of potassium stuck to the glass. Look how soft it is, even plastic is enough to scratch it off! I'll pour the yellow gasoline off and replace it with paraffin oil.

7.07-7-39
That's how pieces of potassium look now. I want to try to melt it, because potassium melts at 64 C. Let's boil some water, and put the test tube with potassium into this hot water. Once the paraffin oil is warm enough, potassium melts and becomes mercury-like, you can use a plastic stick to break the big drop into smaller ones.

The remaining part of the video is experimentation with potassium.

ave369 - 17-7-2017 at 22:27

No one even says "Thank you, ave369"...

NeonPulse - 17-7-2017 at 22:40

Lol I would like to say thank you. Not because I was prompted but because this is the first time I have read your translation. Great job. I wonder though if there's a better way to remove the water without sputtering molten KOH all over the place. I will be giving this method a try in the near future I think.

ave369 - 18-7-2017 at 00:59

you are welcome!

symboom - 18-7-2017 at 07:49

You put alot of effort in to translation and times.
I did not see the reply until now Thank You.
I suprised aluminum is being used

And for the calcium it is more reactive on the reactivity series I thought the magnesium should work too although magnesium can be used to isolate sodium but it has to be the hydroxide.
lithium is used for this and calcium. thermodynamic speaking lithium cant reduce calcium oxide. So with that I presume calcium to be a more powerful reducing agent able to produce potassium.

[Edited on 18-7-2017 by symboom]

symboom - 23-7-2017 at 22:10

A video showing magnesium potassium aggregate
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qxS9uKvHWks
And making potassium from magnesium and potassium hydroxide he does a lot of high temperature chemistry
mermaidkiller youtube user name

It is interesting cody tried magnesium with potassium chloride and it did not work
It seems like metals from the alkaline metal group can react with a alkali hydroxide at reduce it to the metal
But a alkali metal can react with a alkali halide to obtain the metal metals calcium to barium might beable to form any alkali metal

Although im not sure if its always true but it seems like the trend that is occurring

[Edited on 24-7-2017 by symboom]

[Edited on 24-7-2017 by symboom]

NeonPulse - 22-10-2017 at 16:48

I tried a similar method to nurd rage where he makes the Na/ MgO aggregate but with KOH. I did plan to use dioxane to coalesce the Potassium formed as NR did with sodium. I used the same molar portions by t substituted NaOH with KOH instead. The actual thermite reaction was ferocious and far more violent than the NaOH/Mg mixture. I kind of underestimated the size of the vessel needed and it made a mess leaving MgO all over the place. I do believe that K metal did form as there was green staining all over the vessel and inside it too. I suspected the violence and heat produced actually boiled all my product away. And water produced from the KOH probably did not help either. There was no visible reaction with any of the slag in water and it looked to be mostly MgO so I did not proceeded any further than the thermite reaction. Perhaps if I used a coarse Mg and a smaller than a mole amount of reactants to limit the heat produced a bit.

91E12C29-53D4-4156-89D5-27057F8C8110.jpeg - 1.3MB7D24EF1A-3815-4694-8CF4-C3FC40619FCF.jpeg - 2.5MB

NeonPulse - 27-10-2017 at 17:39

I have wondered if this method could work and there is a video that confirms my suspicion. This guy was able to make a decent looking amount of K metal in a fairly simple setup which is possibly the easiest, highest yielding method i have seen so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1MVv0u2tmw

I have not given up obtaining K via the nurdrage method yet. it is going to work for me! but i want to attempt this one first though and have all the needed reagents plus a steel setup from the cesium making runs.

phlogiston - 28-10-2017 at 14:49

I appreciate it ave369, your translation makes the video's content accessible to much larger audience.
Makes me wander how much really interesting stuff goes unnoticed to the much of the world because it is published in an uncommon language.

NeonPulse - 30-10-2017 at 23:46

Ok, so I made an attempt at distillation of Potassium from Calcium metal and potassium chloride. According to this reaction scheme: 2KCl + Ca —> 2K + CaCl2 I used my gas burner for a heat source. It did seem to go OK but very slowly due to not using a vacuum source. The potassium decider to condense at the rim of the tube where the end of the retort went into the tube. This was bothersome so I waited till the lot cooled and collected what had condensed. It was only a few beads but it was promising. I have quit a bit of Ca metal and loads of KCl so I plan to change the design of my device a bit to avoid the problem of condensation at the rim. Using a vacuum would be ideal though but with a bit of tweaking I could probably probably produce a nice amount of K in a small amount of time.

676D53CC-394E-4DC8-9FC8-7143506041F9.jpeg - 1.4MB

[Edited on 31-10-2017 by NeonPulse]

839DF9D5-DE71-4B0B-A6BA-A9FD467CCB2E.jpeg - 2MB

Bezaleel - 13-11-2017 at 08:33

Quote: Originally posted by ave369  
I know Russian and can translate the video. The author of the video blocked adding translated subtitles to his video, but I'll write the transcript here.

(...)


That's an interesting translation, ave369! Thanks for putting it here.

aga - 6-12-2017 at 08:23

I had a go at the KOH + Mg thing today.

Definitely a more violent reaction than the Na version.

blobs1.jpg - 40kB

Some tiny (<1mm) blobs appeared. They explode when added to water ;)

Now to work on getting them out and coalesced.

Edit:

Petrol actually seems like a good idea, despite the boiling part.

Thanks for the translation ave !

[Edited on 6-12-2017 by aga]

NeonPulse - 17-12-2017 at 01:52

Did another potassium experiment today. Similar to my last experiment I ran a distillation however today’s was run under vacuum. The results were pretty good with nearly 3G of K metal once cleaned up. The synthesis was pretty straight forward with a 1/10th molar scale. The right amount of each the KCl and Ca metal weee put into a steel retort with a long copper tube running into a receiver which was a test tube with a side arm from which the vacuum was pulled. The problem was that once I pulled the vacuum some of the powdered KCl came over. This was pretty annoying but I continued on anyway.
Shortly after starting the heating some potassium Began to come over and was pretty consistent through the process so long as the copper tube was kept hot enough for the potassium to stay liquid. Not bad for a first attempt but there are some improvements for next time though including a larger reaction vessel, using argon to flush the apparatus first and a thinner walled retort to lower the heat needed to keep it going. Also probably some 20mm test tubes instead of the 15mm ones I had here. Should have a video up soon.


Also I have had two different attempts at the NurdRage dioxane method for sodium but for potassium instead and it has not worked for me. The slag from the reaction is incredibly reactive with the telltale lilac bursts of flame which indicates the metal is there but it just won’t coalesce like the video depicted for NurdRage. It started looking promising though at first with tiny beads of metal floating around but it may have just been consumed in the solvent somehow. Once the level got low in the reaction flask I just poured the distilled dioxane back to cycle it again. No joy though. I’m going to try it for sodium and again for potassium before I declare it won’t work for me.

8E1F421E-172B-4F7A-8A44-9ADF56043A9A.jpeg - 1.3MB8DF08594-6F77-45D2-B52E-9F4DF77322CC.jpeg - 907kB

Iodobenzene - 3-1-2018 at 08:03

I found a procedure which uses 1,2,3,4 tetrahydronaftalene as the solvent and tert amyl alcohol as the catalyst.
What do you think about it?

MrHomeScientist - 3-1-2018 at 08:08

Post it. NurdRage used Tetralin in his synthesis, so I bought some and tried it but my hotplate failed on me. That stuff has a terrible odor that slowly escapes from the bottles I used, which ruined my old lab fridge from storing it in there. If you buy it, be sure you have a very good bottle to store it.
I can't remember who or what the result was but I'm sure someone here has tried tert amyl alcohol; it's buried somewhere in this thread.

Iodobenzene - 4-1-2018 at 06:33

The procedure is Italian and i found it on myttex.net ,it was written by an user named "Kirmer".
Here's the English translation i made:
Put 2,4 grams of Magnesium powder,5 grams of Potassium Hydroxide and 20 ml of 1,2,3,4 tetrahydronaftalene in an erlenmeyer flask.
Attach a 31 cm long liebig condenser to the erlenmeyer flask and close the condenser with aluminium foil.
Heat up to boil the mixture,when it gets clearer add 0,8 ml of tert amyl alcohol from the top of the condenser.
Slowly some globules of molten Potassium will start to form.
That's the reaction:
2Mg +2KOH ----> 2K + H2 +2 MgO
The alcohol is the catalyzer.
Add 0,1 ml every 10 minutes of tert amyl alcohol and in 2/3 hours a ball of Potassium will form.
Turn off the heating,and pour the mixture in a beaker filled with vaseline and separate the potassium balls.
Store the potassium balls in a glass container filled with vaseline.
Here some pics:
http://www.myttex.net/forum/attachment.php?aid=5421
http://www.myttex.net/forum/attachment.php?aid=5422

Here the link to the original in italian:
http://www.myttex.net/forum/Thread-Come-fare-il-Potassio

Iodobenzene - 5-1-2018 at 00:28

What do you think about it?
Can i sobstitute 1,2,3,4 tetrahydronaftalene with a commoner solvent?

MrHomeScientist - 5-1-2018 at 10:52

Sorry to say it, but read the thread. There's an enormous amount of discussion on every single aspect of this reaction.
The general consensus is that the solvent must not react with the reactants or products and that it has a high boiling point (over 200C if I remember right). Which catalysts will work and which won't is a bit more of a mystery. There were also experiments using Mg powder vs Mg turnings that had mixed success either way. I used lamp oil and tert-butyl alcohol when I did it.

The one you posted looks like a pretty standard method, using the "staggered addition" strategy for the catalyst. Some may disagree, but we found that this isn't necessary; you can add the catalyst all at the beginning and the synthesis still works. That's what I did in mine, anyway.
The tetralin is used as a solvent because potassium floats in it, which greatly improves metal coalescence. With my lamp oil, much of the K remained as sand (tiny beads) that refused to combine into larger spheres. Tetralin, unfortunately, appears to be one of the very few solvents that K will float in but not react with.

tert-butanol from chlorobutanol

experimenter_ - 26-7-2018 at 01:01

Chlorobutanol is easier to make than tert-butanol (chloroform and acetone react much more easily to make chlorobutanol compared to a Gignard reaction required for tert-butanol synthesis). The question is, can chlorobutanol be reduced to tert-butanol by hydrogenation? A relevant thread here doesn't reveal much:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=71...

The simplest possible routes I could find are the Zn/HCl reduction or the addition of Mg in an ethanolic (?) solution of chlorobutanol. Reference: http://staff.um.edu.mt/ratk1/HaloAlkaneProps.htm
I'm sure you might have more ideas.
Do you think it is possible for the amateur?

Discussion could be continued here: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=71...

S.C. Wack - 26-7-2018 at 18:07

It would be a worthwhile investigation for the serious experimenter. I'd try this if I didn't already have plenty. Magnesium forms the alkoxide with primary alcohols under the conditions of OS CV5, 998 - AV47, 103 (where the Mg is powder BTW) thus ethanol is out.

Partial Success

JScott - 29-8-2018 at 11:55

I followed the video Neon Pulse put on YouTube. Thank you for that inspiration!

I was somewhat concerned that my Mg wasn't fine enough at 250 mesh it certainly wasn't 'dust'. Also, that sample arrived here nearly two years ago (though the bottle hasn't been opened since then, and it was packed hard to the top). With it's age meaning more heavily oxidized Mg, my expectations were that I was endeavoring to learn. I did not have any expectations of success as I was under the impression this was an advanced procedure anyhow so wasn't too concerned about this first effort's results.

I take photos of most setups, I don't draw well and was taught to always include a drawing of my apparatuses in my notes. I also take photos of completion (the product) even if I don't feel I've gotten anywhere. You need a starting point before you can go anywhere.

It took a while to get my temperature up, a thermocouple in the sand was only indicator. I didn't have a thermometer at the head of the still or in the flask. In the end the temperature at the bottom of the flask, in the sand was 351C. The contents of the flask boiled well through the entire procedure.

I have included those two "failure photos" more as proof of having been there. I don't see, and didn't see then any potassium. It is now clear to me that more time and perhaps low temperatures for coalescing might have yielded something more obvious.

It wasn't until clean up (and yes I did consider what might happen if there was potassium in the flask) that I noticed anything interesting. In the interest of the getting flask clean I started by adding about 10ml of water. I was very pleasantly surprised to see an obvious, colorful K fire with some Mg thrown in for good measure!

Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Reading the posts to this point (something I suppose I should have done BEFORE doing this ;-)) has been very helpful and given me a number of places to improve my procedure.

In the end I would think the larger Mg particle size was my main issue. Would a longer reflux make up for the larger particles?

Thanks in advance for your kind considerations. Just two photos, the reflux and the flask after 4:30 in the procedure (I called it complete at this point, though had I come here and read this posting I would have gone for much longer).


K_2.jpg - 88kBK_1.jpg - 112kB

Double check your solvent!

UC235 - 8-9-2018 at 08:53

I had a go at the Mg/oil reduction yesterday using Mineral Oil Laxative from Walmart (Their house Equate brand). After 3 1/2 hours I wasn't seeing anything. The dehydration phase seemed to have gone well, and it was gently simmering with the sand bath at 215-225C.

I made the dumb assumption that the gently simmering solvent was the same temperature as the sand bath, which isn't outrageous considering the flask was buried up to the solvent line in sand. I shut things down and before it cooled off, stuck the thermometer in the mineral oil. It was only 160C somehow. Well, no wonder nothing happened. I either need a different source of mineral oil or I need to distill this stuff until I get to ~220C and use what's left in the pot.

elementcollector1 - 8-9-2018 at 09:09

My initial tests with mineral oil failed as well - when I switched to kerosene lamp oil, things started improving almost immediately. I also had a problem with getting to 200 C with my hot plate (back then, a Hamilton Beach cooking plate). My advice is simply to change your solvent and upgrade your heating source. Also, invest in stirring if you can - it worked wonders on my final runs, improved the yield quite a bit.
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